What goes around...

[Mr Rick]

I was playing 10/20 LHE at Foxwoods in a fairly loose game so I limp in SB with T9o. There are three to the flop, which comes down 87x. There is a bet by the BB, followed by a raise by a guy at the far end of the table. I call the two bets. The turn is a J giving me the nuts and I call the raiser's bet.

Its two to the river which is a blank - I have the nuts. I check raise and he raises back. I re-raise and he raises back. I think about just calling because it is clearly a chop - but I raise one more time. He calls and says I have the straight. Which he doesn't. He misread his hand and he has nothing: a Ten and a 6.

I turn to the guy next to me, who is a pro, and probably the best player we see at 10/20 (he plays 20/40 a lot) and ask him if I should give the other guy back some or all of his bets. The pro's response was that I should not - because then everybody at the table would start having trouble reading their hands...

So I did nothing.

Time passes and the guy stays in the game - which I thought was very courageous. He moves down to the table two to my right and we start talking. I tell him I have misread a hand which cost me, and the pro, who had left, had told me about going 7 bets on the river with what he thought was the nuts, only to be saved by another pro who was too lazy to put more bets in.

I ask the guy if the glare was a problem where he was sitting - because he had put on sungleasses. He said no. So I asked if they were prescription sunglasses. He said no. He is blind in one eye and almost lost the other eye. He says he misread two hands already in this game. He said that he doesn't care about losing the money, he is just grateful every morning that he wakes up alive still with the ability to see a naked woman!!!

So the game continues, I am about to go. He is into the game for over $1,000. We are in a hand together with one other player - no raise pre-flop. I am SB with Q9s. The flop comes down with two of my suit and I have 2 overcards. I bet, call, call. Turn is a Q, putting a second flush draw up. I bet, call, call. River is a K. Not my suit. Not the third guy's suit. Check, check, he bets. I call. AK wins.

A few hands later. He calls, I raise pre-flop on the button with KTs. One other guy in. Flop is TTx, the x being my suit. BB bets, my guy calls, I call. Turn is Q of my suit. BB bets, my guy calls, I raise, BB folds, my guy calls and says "God, hit me on the river". As the words are out of his mouth, the dealer rivers an A not of my suit. He bets, I call. He shows me KJ for the win.

I can't remember ever being glad about taking two beats so close together on the river like that. The guy was beaming, and I wished him well. I left, rather than play one more circuit, because I thought we were about even, he and I - and I wasn't sure how God felt about it...

Why I posted this story here and not in the Medium Stakes low content thread, is I am curious about opinions about offering to return some or all of the guy's bets. Both at the time, and when I found out he was blind in one eye. Fire away.

Cliff notes: "What goes around comes around" or "You reap what you sow" or "Karma" or "Thats poker" or maybe even "Wake up every morning with a smile on your face and show the world all the love in your heart" (Carole King circa 1970).

However, if I had been a nicer guy, the cliff notes might have been, "No good deed goes unpunished!" ...

[RobTheDuck]

I am a big believer in Poker Karma.

For this reason, I do not cheat, angle shoot, complain about bad beats (at the table) or act like I am on TV when I suckout/hit a 2 outer/get lucky in general.

However, I do not feel like you needed to give his bets back. You did nothing wrong. If he is legally blind or whatever, and still chooses to play the game then he must deal with his disability. I know many players who know they go on tilt, yet when they do they don't walk away, and therefore bleed off money. Would you feel bad about getting extra bets out of someone who was steaming?

I love the fact that you felt good about losing the 2 pots back to the guy. That is the best way ever for you to not go on tilt about getting rivered.

Cliff notes: believe in Karma, but still benefit from your opponents mistakes.

[pococurante]

Good story.

Like you, I would have really been considering giving him some chips back after the misread... good point by that pro though, I had never considered that angle.

[Micro Donk]

you dont give chips back after winning a pot. its not your fault he misread his hand.

[W brad]

Since this story involves poker player blindness, we need to hear Clarkmeister's opinion.

[signal]

Hi Mr Rick,


Glad to hear you're tearing up the tables as usual. I agree with Rob the duck's points:

[ QUOTE ]
For this reason, I do not cheat, angle shoot, complain about bad beats (at the table) or act like I am on TV when I suckout/hit a 2 outer/get lucky in general.

However, I do not feel like you needed to give his bets back. You did nothing wrong. If he is legally blind or whatever, and still chooses to play the game then he must deal with his disability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not give anything back; like all other players, he is an adult and must accentuate his strengths and deal with his weaknesses/disabilities (did you ever hear the one about the dyslexic poker player who kept thinking he got rivered, but was really behind the whole way?).

It certainly would be kind to return some loot; however, moral judgments are not universal and this judgment is in the end up to you. Another important thing to note is that some players might find the offer to return funds condescending or that you are pitying the disability.

On the other hand, returning the loot might obscure your intimidating shark-like image of a 10/20 predator.

[DrVanNostrin]

Are you talking about the guy who appears to have suffered a bad burn on his face and neck and had some kind of reconstructive surgury?

[kailua]

It sounds like both of you have your priorities right. In his case being thankful for the remaining ability to appreciate pleasures in his life. In yours, holding on to an empathy for the human condition.

No need to donate chips back since you’re each ahead where it matters.

[Diamond Lie]

Wow, I just met you on friday. Based on our limited conversastion I can say firsthand you seemed like a cool/stand up guy.

What I have read here is suprising to me though. Don't know too many people who would even consider something like this. You definetly would be going above and beyond if you did, but I don't think I ever do this.

I know its limit, but in NL this happens all the time and for many more BB's. I have lost 200+ misplaying the suit of my cards when I thought I had a flush (I hate it when my spades turn into clubs!). My opponent laughed, and I felt like an idiot, but definetly deserved to lose the pot since I misplayed my hand. Its my responsibility as a poker player

I have seen one woman who had 1600 behind her at 1/2 give back money. I couldn't believe my eyes. Someone folded KK on a board of KT8T3 because he put her on the nut flush. His read was correct, and he folded for $150 more or something in a huge pot. She gave him back all the money he put in on previous streets, after he realized he had mucked a full house. I dont think I will ever see that happen again at a casino in my lifetime.

[HeroInBlack]

Was keeping the chips morally wrong? No. Would giving some back be morally wrong? No. This is one of those cases where you have to do what you feel is most fair in your heart. I don't think anyone else can really judge this one either way.