COMMERCE 1/2. 9Ts. RIVER PLAY?

[mosta]

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with all due respect because i like your posts, preflop is a mistake in most cases. it is only correct in specific games vs specific opponents. you only have T high, a hand that plays well multi-way, but not vs a single or 2 opponents. you have position which is the only good thing about your situation. raising here with mid suited connectors (and low pairs) cost you money over time, and are a leak in many solid players games.

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unless you're playing a _lot_ of "K-hi" and "Q-hi" hands then it sounds like you're playing well under 20% of your hands from the button in a 3-handed game, no? and that can't be right, right? I think you also mention smaller pairs as being overplayed (77?). wouldn't most HU specialsts strongly disagree with you?

[Ryno]

hoochie mama. There is so much more to this situation than a showdown simulator could tell you.

[DcifrThs]

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Amulet I also like your posts, and even though your advice isnt always standard its obvious you can play, and have a real good understanding of the game. However Im pretty sure you are way off on this one. Im gonna look at some stats when I get home, but most of the best players I know are opening with many hands that are much worse than 109s when folded to them on the button. Besides the fact that the hand defintely shows a profit, I think having such a small opening from range LP would make you too exploitable VS good aggresive players in the blinds.

Throw in the fact that the blinds play poorly and folding becomes an even bigger mistake IMO.

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i firmly second. exactly. nice post steve.

Barron

[DcifrThs]

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with all due respect because i like your posts, preflop is a mistake in most cases. it is only correct in specific games vs specific opponents. you only have T high, a hand that plays well multi-way, but not vs a single or 2 opponents. you have position which is the only good thing about your situation. raising here with mid suited connectors (and low pairs) cost you money over time, and are a leak in many solid players games.

[/ QUOTE ]

unless you're playing a _lot_ of "K-hi" and "Q-hi" hands then it sounds like you're playing well under 20% of your hands from the button in a 3-handed game, no? and that can't be right, right? I think you also mention smaller pairs as being overplayed (77?). wouldn't most HU specialsts strongly disagree with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

amulet means how the hand plays postflop. hes probably seen a few (or many) solid players open and cap 55 from the button. in this situation, vs. a player that has learned how to handle blind wars OOP, its going to be a rough ride to the river a large % of the time (i definately play 55 here, i just wouldn't cap with it often). vs. bad players, however, i think any pair and up is playable from the button..even all they way down to 22, but i personally like two have at least the possibility of an undercard or 2 hitting so i typically fold 22/33 if the blinds are good.

anyways, amulet is definately knowledgeable here and i think he knows where the value of small pairs comes from in the right situations. what he's likely referring to is the tendency for some players to vastly overvalue the playability of small pairs in position vs. good players. and its likely those same players who overplay them significantly.

Barron

[amulet]

game and opponent specific.

let's say the opponents are decent players who defend enough so i know i can't take their $ with any raise. but who are not crazy and go to the river every time i raise their blinds. then, any A, any pair 77 or higher (often 66 too). plus QTo or better, Q9s, KT or better, K9s, often K9. if the opponents fold too often then, more kings, more hands etc. if they are very aggressive, then i fold the lower hands (A2, etc), but QT or better is a must.

i think high card value is very important in blind stealing. that is why i think T high would be a leak for most players. even with position, it being suited, and aggression, vs decent opponents i think it won't show a positive ev (for most players).

a player like me can get away with it more then most, lol.

i am still tighter them most here. however, betweem my fellow 2+2ers, ssh, and the new breed of opponent, i am much looser then a year ago, and even more aggressive.

[amulet]

Barron, what do you open with, and what do you suggest to others?

[amulet]

steve,

i think this is very game and opponent specific. even specific to the last few times you raised and what you showed down. you need to know what your opponents think of you.

i agree that you need to vary your game. there are times i open with worse then T9s, times when i fold better. not being readable is very important. you must vary your game.

but the T (T9s) high "standard" raise in my opinion is not correct.

[amulet]

i think being suited really matters vs several opponents. with position, and several opponents, it is great.

but you only make a flush about 6% of the time IF you see the river. therefore, vs one or 2 opponents i would choose high card strength over being suited. i would chose KTo over QJS for a late position steal (co or button).

the QJ, QT, raises you mention i agree with, and raise from late position also with them. hi-jack would be a raise for me in almost all games assuming i am first to open. certainly live, usually online, suited or not suited i raise with these.

but the JTs, J9s,T9s,T8s, are not strong enough in my opinion to raise with in many games. i think most will lose $ raising here with them. just like in a aggressive game i usually fold all these hands in early position. strangely, i think it is somewhat similar hand range to steal raise with.

most of the games i play in are aggressive.

however, as i stated in a post above, so much is game and opponent specific.

[LarsVegas]

If your games are aggressive, you should be familiar with the key concept of playability, which is why I rate A5o on par with A7o as a stealing hand, even though the added straight potential only results in a straight a very small percentage of the time. The reason is that on the 4-3-x, 4-2-x and 3-2-x flops, you suddenly have a hand that you can take and even give a lot more action on, than "regular misses" with with the sad A-x offsuit that A-5 is.

With a suited hand, the change is DRAMATIC. Lets say you raise this T-9s on the button, the small blind 3-bets and the big blind folds. You put him on a range of AK-AT, Ax suited, KQ, KJ, 44> and perhaps QJs, KTs.

The flop comes: 6-4-2. You are now drawing dead against AA-TT, 66, 44 and 22, very slim against AT, A9s, KTs and 99. I guess that if it's call here with T-9 without any backdoor flush possibilities, it's very slim and you might as well fold (it's pretty close). Throw in a backdoor flush on a rainbow (or even twosuited) board. Now, it's suddenly a clear call. You have a massive 16 cards that can improve you on the turn and give you a hand that is clearly worth either a call or raise on the turn.

Now, you might call with or without the suited hand that gives you a backdoor flush here, you just call with T9. The turn card comes an Eight, but this Eight would give T9s a flush draw. Opponent bets again. You decrease his range to pocket pairs and only big aces. With a "bare" T9, I guess you are playing on average, 6 or 7 outs, and probably have a close fold. With the flush draw, you have a clear call, maybe even a raise to try clear out the big aces or a small pocket pair.

So, the river arrives, a Ten, Nine or a Seven - and probably (I gave these cards a 60-70% chance of being good) wins you the pot. Or maybe, as I said, you raise the turn and win the pot right there, of course you could do this without the flush draw too, but that stands a much bigger risk of being a losing play in the long run.

I think it's close to a pure poker myth that suited only helps against a big field. In heads-up pots, it helps you win a lot of pots where it's a battle of taking down pots where both have little, without anyone actually making the flush. Even flopping as little as a backdoor flush can be what scores the pot, enabling you to make a flop bet/call/raise that you would've been hard pressed to with only 6 cards to improve with on the turn, then on the turn you might catch you pair and you never see more than one of your trump on the board, yet the flush possibility was decisive in winning the pot.

lars

[DcifrThs]

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Barron, what do you open with, and what do you suggest to others?

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i'll start by using my own stats. at 1/2 my VPIP on the button (position stats, filter 3 handed select button and filtered for 1/2) is 44.39%...which equates to:

33+, any Ace, K6 or so+, Q6+, J7+, T8 and 98s.

so those are my actual statistical opening standards w/ some noise im sure thrown in as a result of changing blinds charateristics. they are definately open for discussion.

EDIT: i understand my posting this will allow for opponents to see my stats, but since i dont play anymore 1/2 right now, im ok discussing and refining my range...

Barron