2-7 Split Pot Offer

[karpov]

Bellagio Mix games 200-400. They offered me several times to split the pot when both players draw 1 at the last draw. When is better to refuse. For example 2346 is better than 2347 before the last draw? It would be very useful to hace a chart with the basic strategy for this situations.

[MarkGritter]

Usually somebody is giving up about 4-5% of their pot equity in such a deal. If the players hate variance so much, why are they playing triple draw? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

2346/2345 etc. are actually worse that 2347 because the outs that make a straight.

Some random confrontations:

7432 vs 8652: 0.543 vs. 0.457
7432 vs 6432: 0.562 vs 0.438
7542 vs 9632: 0.553 vs. 0.447
8742 vs 9632: 0.537 vs. 0.463
8742 vs. T632: 0.564 vs. 0.436
8742 vs. 6532: 0.515 vs 0.485
8742 with paired 8 and 7 vs 6532: 0.563 vs. 0.437

I would generally not to take such a deal because it would encourage somebody to draw rough against me without having to sacrifice last-draw equity by doing so.

Take the deal if you believe you are the one drawing rough or to a straight (or flush!). Tend to reject it if you have paired cards that you believe your opponent needs. Reject it if you think they are only offering with their weak draws, or you believe you can successfully outplay them after the draw.

[DeathDonkey]

Mark your advice is technically perfect but wrong in a real-world sense. This offer is for camaraderie between good players who recognize this variance isn't worth it when there are plenty of hands to play against the fish. If karpov tries to only take the deal with his roughest hands and refuse with his smooth ones he won't be offered the deals after a few showdowns and it wouldn't really be fair for him to do that anyway (in my opinion in an ethics sense though clearly +EV).

karpov, I never used to take these deals because I knew I was giving away a bit of EV but now I do because the variance isn't worth it in live games for me since I play them infrequently and I have no illusions about reaching "the long run" - I'd prefer to not go broke in black chip games against decent players by being stubborn. Also, live players often play triple draw tighter than I first expected, they always try and make the nuts so when they are there on the end drawing one they are usually fairly smooth, smoother than me I think, so it might be a good deal. Realize you can adjust and stick around a bit longer with rough hands if you are in the dealing business too so its maybe not -EV to take them.

-DeathDonkey

[Fiasco]

WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! are we talking about two players splitting the pot 50/50 when they will both be drawing one on the end before they actually look at the cards? This is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard. Youd just try and get pat as soon as possible, and take a deal anytime you werent with a much rougher draw. It would probably take a good while for your opponents to catch onto this.

I must not be reading your description of this situation right.

[DeathDonkey]

You have it right but its not as simple as you say. If you go pat too rough you will lose because there is no deal to be had and your playing sub-obtimally. In multiway pots deals pretty much never occur so this isn't like an every hand situation at all. Also, nobody is doing it to exploit an edge in the way that you describe, its like the hand plays normally until the last card and then it dawns on both players this is sort of retarded and bad for their bankrolls so a deal sometimes gets made on the spur of the moment.

-DeathDonkey

[Chris Daddy Cool]

dd hit this pretty right on the head. i play live 2-7 so infrequently and there are better spots that i don't really care much for sacrificing equity. i remember a couple games where dd offered to chop the pot with me and stubburn as i am i refused and lost. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

fwiw aside from those couple times, i've never been offered to split.

[MarkGritter]

DD,

I appreciate what you're saying but I don't think I like the implications.

In the Stud/8 game I play at Garden City the weak players will often "check it down" when it is a high hand vs. an obvious low. Those who play weak hands get to see showdown cheaply. This reduces variance in close situations, certainly, but it also has something of a collusive feel. The custom could be used by two player to raise me out of the pot and then expect to avoid getting freerolled by a made low or pay to chase a bad low.

In a mixed HE/Omaha tournament I occasionally play it is standard for the final table to chop the prize pool instead of playing with short stacks. The chip leader will often get some extra, but 9th place will often triple his money. When the expectation is that such a deal is made, the play of the tournament is different as there is little benefit to accumulating chips heading into the final table. Instead of looking at $90 vs. $0 you are often looking at $300 vs. $0 in a $60 buyin tournament.

I don't think the "friendly" customs of checking it down in a split-pot game, or chopping the final table prize pool, or splitting the pot on the last draw are unethical. But I do think that their presence significantly alters the dynamics of the game in a way that regulars can take advantage of and occasional players may not be used to.

Maybe I just have more gamble in me than I thought I did. But "playing against the fish" rubs me the wrong way.

I do agree that ethically the best course is to always accept such a deal or never do so. (Though the OP did ask for a hand chart, which was why I tried answering the way I did!) But this must be expanded to include the fish too--- if experts A and B decide it's not worth it to gamble on a 5% edge between themselves, they should extend the same courtesy toward the non-experts.

[DeathDonkey]

Mark,

I could write for a longgg time on this subject. I said earlier that I used to never chop when I played live TDL and that I've changed my stance on that, I think what happened was more experience playing live and an appreciation for some of the things that occur in casinos that simply cannot happen online because the rules are set by the software. I definitely agree with you that there is a slippery slope when talking about making deals at the poker table because you can fall off the cliff and be talking about collusion with a bit of imagination. I think poker players in general have strong ethics about this type of thing and will not hesitate to call someone out when they think that line is being crossed.

If you could see things I see at Commerce every day which at the very least is blatant soft-playing and often straddles the line of collusion between many of the regulars in the game (and especially among many of the Asian regulars) you wouldn't think anything of the examples you mention in your post. The first time I folded to a turn raise and my two opponents checked it down blind on the river I was surprised but I have never had reason to believe they weren't playing straightforwardly right up until the point where I folded and then they were free to make whatever betting decisions they wanted. If I saw even once somebody show down total trash I would definitely speak up but I think its sour grapes to complain about them doing what they want after I fold and I've gotten used to it or over it - it's the way poker is in live games and you have to watch out for yourself. One more example of something that used to bug me...someone will raise and I'll fold in the SB and the BB will then ask the raiser "take the profit?" and pull back their BB and the raiser will get my $50 and let's deal the next hand.

Live players do have an "us against them" or "pros vs fish" mentality which is useful in that its exploitable, and most of them aren't very good at poker, but it would be extremely -EV to not at least appear to be on the right side of their ire for the sake of harmony and probably +EV as they give me certain breaks that I certainly don't reciprocate.

You mention they should extend the courtesy to the fish but one thing about fish is that they wouldn't want to take this deal because it doesn't have the right gamble to it and they don't have a conception of the ramifications of making the deal or not over a long period of time. They know right now they have a 4 card hand and if they don't find out what that last card is they will just burst. Maybe you could make a deal with them where they get to rabbit hunt after the hand but if they find out they would have caught well they will be upset they took the deal - it's just not a good situation and you won't have to be the one to refuse the deal because most fish would never ask for one.

I probably come off sounding like a softplaying, superstitious, silly live player but I'm not - I'm a 23 year old kid in the eyes of my opponents who has been lucky enough to play both live and online over the few years I've been playing poker and I've developed a certain respect for the code of conduct that live players have that is hard to find online. I also have started to develop a feeling for what variance is and what it can do if it gets mad at you and taking certain small -EV situations to avoid that is a good decision for me when playing in big scary dangerous games. I'm comfortable with the ethical leg I stand on in all poker situations I've been involved in so far and I definitely think about issues like the ones we are discussing.

-DeathDonkey

[HOWMANY]

I would only take this deal if I was OOP/drawing pretty rough, and since that's kind of scummy I'd probably just never do it.

[karpov]

7432 vs 6432: 0.562 vs 0.438

Mark, how do you calculate this. I know five is very bad, bad what about all the times both catch the same card from 8 to A, it looks like a big advantage for the 6.
I agree 100% with all what Deathdonkey wrote, obviously he is the one who has experience in high limit games, in these kind of games are normally, 4 or 5 very good pros and 2 or 3 rich guys (fish) who play in decent way, not terrible. I like to make deals with them, because they feel very good and I like to make deals with the other pros because we play together everyday, but I just wanted to know is you are giving alot away when you have a hand like 8532 and somebody offers you a deal.