JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues

[jocke4]

yesterday I played almost an exact hand like this.
Had nines and folded.
a lower pocket pair won it.

too bad, but i think you made the right choice w/o know what they hold.

[yegon]

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1. how small would the BB's AI have to be for us to call and why?

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If our plan is to play for set value, our move on the flop is to check-fold when we miss, especially out of position. The rule of thumb is that investing more than 1/5 of your stack (effectively) begins to commit you, and bet- or call-folding beyond that becomes problematic, unless you're running a big bluff or (say) a card falls that completely destroys your hand or villain suddenly gives off an *exceptionally reliable* indication that your equity is terrible / you're basically dead.

Say BB has $5 and shoves, you shrug it off and call, CO surprises you and calls, BTN shoves all in, now what? That's a best case scenario, but you're still not thrilled, cause CO might have read BTN for a shove and is trapping more money in the pot. Your problem is your inability to control / anticipate the actions of two opponents in a re-raised pot who act after you. BB's stack size isn't really changing that.

2. If I show up with QQ here I shove over BB and expect BTN to call me incorrectly fairly often and take my lumps when CO has AA/KK. But I'm likely felting it pre.

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OK, I have seen the light - thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ama0330]

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Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $25.30
SB: $48.10
BB: $18.55
Hero (UTG): $49.25
CO: $57.10

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $6.75</font>, BTN calls $6.75, SB folds, BB calls $6.25, Hero calls $4.75

Flop: ($27.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $11.80 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $11.80, <font color="red">CO raises to $50.35 and is All-In</font>, BTN calls $18.55 and is All-In, Hero???

And we have some shenanigans from the CO, which when I called I was worried about.

Obv, as I replied in an earlier post shoving this flop with the CO still to act is beyond horrible, we fold out AK/AQ/TT and only get called by hands that beat us.

Folding is just as bad, since we could very well have the best hand at this point.

I think calling was the only option, but I wasn't in love with it.

Now CO has shoved over the top of us, and been called by the last short stack....while I felt this was obv at the table, curious to see your opinions.

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This is why we snapfold the flop, and also why if you want to call the first 11 on the flop, you have to call the rest. Some may say well hey we can just call the first 11 and then fold when the other one shoves, but LOL thats just comedic shennanigans.

Preflop call is thin but flop is shove or fold. I have no idea in hell why you would think that shoving this flop is horrible, because not only is the pot more than big enough, any broadway on the turn either crushes you or kills your action. Shoving this flop is fine (in theory, I would just fold because I'm pretty sure we are behind 4 ways)