Another likely lame Ax defending story

[danzasmack]

[ QUOTE ]
"when im playing well, and running well, and have a good image there is no way im folding this flop."

funny i'm the opposite. the better i'm running/playing the easier i can talk myself into a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I c/r the turn with A5hi i get called down by every better hand (including A6hi) and only fold out worse ones.

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the problem. I'm a relentless flop checkraiser. Change the 6 to a 2 and I usually c/r.


[/ QUOTE ]

A5o - Q82... you CR here as a default play against a good player? I assume you then lead all turns?

I don't think I'm ever CR'ing in that spot. What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think c/r with A5 on Q82 is fine a ton of the time. Sometimes call because I would sometimes call with an 8 or a Q to c/r turn as well as JT/J9/T9 some of the time. I would c/r AX/gutshot/pair on the flop like 80% at least I would guess against any normalish villain and c/r turn the rest of the time. The problem is that if you are c/c Q82r but you always c/r pair or draw then your hand is marked as A or K high here. The same problem is present on Q86 but we have the added problem that not only is our hand faceup, the board is much worse because it is way more likely to hit them in either pair or draw form and is making them peel the flop if they don't have anything guaranteed, and pretty much anything other than a 2/3/A is a bad card for us on the turn.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the problem. I'm a relentless flop checkraiser. Change the 6 to a 2 and I usually c/r.


[/ QUOTE ]

A5o - Q82... you CR here as a default play against a good player? I assume you then lead all turns?

I don't think I'm ever CR'ing in that spot. What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think c/r with A5 on Q82 is fine a ton of the time. Sometimes call because I would sometimes call with an 8 or a Q to c/r turn as well as JT/J9/T9 some of the time. I would c/r AX/gutshot/pair on the flop like 80% at least I would guess against any normalish villain and c/r turn the rest of the time. The problem is that if you are c/c Q82r but you always c/r pair or draw then your hand is marked as A or K high here. The same problem is present on Q86 but we have the added problem that not only is our hand faceup, the board is much worse because it is way more likely to hit them in either pair or draw form and is making them peel the flop if they don't have anything guaranteed, and pretty much anything other than a 2/3/A is a bad card for us on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... I was questioning why we simply don't just fold these flops the vast majority of the time? I must be missing something here as this seems like a low equity high reverse implied odds situation.

[HOWMANY]

Yeah folding A5 on Q82 is a really bad play. If you fold on such a favorable flop you should be folding preflop. Folding pf is of course an awful play.

[Victor]

cr is bad bc this flop is not in any way "favorable."

its a marginal spot to continue and requires you play very well on later streets. basically you are peeling in the hopes the turn gets checked thru or you hit an ace. folding flop is not that bad and may even be negligible.

[MarkD]

Yah folding A5 on a Q82 is horrible, but folding on a Q86 is correct? What crack are you smoking that folding A5 on a Q82 flop is horrible? Exageration of the year maybe.

There is a 3.5% equity difference in those situations against a 45% button opener.

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
cr is bad bc this flop is not in any way "favorable."

its a marginal spot to continue and requires you play very well on later streets. basically you are peeling in the hopes the turn gets checked thru or you hit an ace. folding flop is not that bad and may even be negligible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not understanding how Q82 is a bad flop. It's not the best but it's pretty good. The flop only puts 2 cards that beat us and they leave the biggest gap in straight possibilities that we can have. I must be insane because Q86 and Q82 seem like they are a universe apart when we have A5.

[Victor]

"I'm not understanding how Q82 is a bad flop."

figure it out. im sure youre smart enough.

"I must be insane because Q86 and Q82 seem like they are a universe apart when we have A5."

if only there was a tool we could use.

[MarkD]

Victor,
You are so much better at making my argument for me then I am.

Also,

[ QUOTE ]
cr is bad bc this flop is not in any way "favorable."

its a marginal spot to continue and requires you play very well on later streets. basically you are peeling in the hopes the turn gets checked thru or you hit an ace. folding flop is not that bad and may even be negligible.


[/ QUOTE ]

This accurately sums up my feelings on this hand and why I fold on a Q82 board as well. I think it's neglible, although looking at it now I may be missing a tiny bit of EV.

[MAxx]

the most glaring thing i see in your posts in this thread is that you are probably cr'ing the flop too much. i'd start saving a few of those flop cr's for the turn. not only hands like flush draws and other [censored], but actual real hands like TP and [censored].

that way you mix it up and somtimes get double big bets on the turn, sometimes make him make expensively incorrect folds, and sometimes get some free turn cards when he knows now he could be walking into a cr.

sometimes it is more costly to you of course, but most importantly it gives you more tools to work with/ gives him more opportunities to make a mistake.

I am in no way saying that you should cr this turn. I am just saying more like if you cr'd other turns more often it would change the shania dynamic of your flop cc.