LIVE 1/2 WORKSHOP

[whorasaurus]

Posted this in SSNL, got a few good thoughts. Show me what u got FR.

Hey guys, i grind it out at 1/2 couple of times a month. Lately, I feel like my game has gotten stale, and I'm not getting much better as a player. For most of my time at b/m 1/2 I've been a tag-nit, pretty much raising for value 99+ and AQ+, hitting a hand, and taking people to valuetown. Since the players at 1/2 are godawful, this has worked out ok for me.

I almost have a $5k roll, so I'm looking to break into 2/5 soon. But in the meantime, I've been adjusting my game, just getting looser in general. I've been doing some questionable things, like 3-betting w/ ATo to isolate some drunk/bad player.

Enough preamble. There are two features of live low limit play I wanted to discuss. The first is table image. How important is this? I find whenever i sit down at a table, I consciously straddle/raise/donk off about $40-50 bucks to give ppl the illusion that I am loose, there to have a good time, whatever. Once I've "primed" the table, I tighten up and wait for premium hands/flops to get the big monies in. But I've begun to question if this is even worth it. In many cases, the players are just so bad that your image doesn't even register. You know the type...players who c/rai for 100BBs in a limped pot w/ TPMK...players who check the nuts till the river then go ZOMG ALLLL INNNNNNNN...and so on. Should I even engage my brain here? or just read the magazines that the casino provides until i get a good hand.

The other thing is c-betting w/ air, especially against multiple opponents. I find that most players are HUGE calling stations, making c-betting usually a disaster. Two barrels are usually needed, which can get very messy if villain decides to c/r turn, or open push river. In short, I probably c-bet 66% of flops HU in position, 30-50% HU OOP, and 10% w/ two or more opponents (these numbers reflect situations when i miss the flop/don't have a made hand).

I bring this up b/c just tonight I was amazed at what a pussy I was. I raised AQo on the button to 20 and get two limp callers. Flop came 992 two diamonds. They both checked to me AND I CHECKED. At the time I saw NO equity in c-betting, because i estimated the chances of both players folding to be very low. In these spots I always get some jerkoff calling me w/ pocket 3's or some garbage flush draw. Then on the turn I psych myself out and check behind, or often fold to some bet.

Well thats it. Advice on all streets appreciated. I know live players are a minority here, but let's see if there's any productive feedback.

[mce86]

C-Betting...you didnt mention if you can read the players...usually live I can read the low limit players and just look at them. C-bet, and you can tell by there call if they really are feeling it..if not, i dont care what the next card is, its getting hammered.
Image definitely matters!!! Yes they are playing their hands, but if they think you are super aggressive, then there KJ top pair looks like a monster when you pot the turn AGAIN...getting them to play back at you.
Multiway, its hard to c-bet with total air..dont worry about it, thats just the game. You could also c-bet less, say half the pot, hit or miss, that way you are looking consistent ( I know i read this in a magazine while playing live..how funny)

[CazicT]

Multi-way I just play hit to win poker live. You can make a ton of money, but you have to get cards this way.

HU and sometimes 3-way, I still CB, but like you said, it's an iffy thing. Alot of times they'll call on the flop with nada because it's only 10 bucks. They don't get scared until you start betting like 25 on the turn, but then you're committing alot more money to CB, but I guess you win more too when it works.

For the most part, there are relatively few hands per session where I am HU anyway, so I don't really sweat it too much either way.

Oh and the loose image thing, I wouldn't worry about it. I once went almost an hour without playing a hand and still stacked someone who had TP vs. my fairly obvious flush... That's just one example, but IMO, at least 80% either aren't paying attention to your image, or don't adjust their play to it at least.

Edit: Maybe an aggro image they will adjust to, but it seems like establishing an aggro image would be costly because the games are made up of mostly calling stations...

[ddagt]

I play live only, 2-4 times a month, and while the NL players are better than the limit players, they still play their cards way more than the other player. I always have a very tight image and still get paid off with my big hands. I do not go out of my way to establish a loose image. I have raised UTG, had people comment "must be AA", then still get called by J7 since it's their favorite hand. Or with flush draw call flop, call turn, bet river when it hits, and still get called, even by the better players at the table when there is no way the likelyhood of me bluffing in relation to pot size justifies a call. Semi-bluffing with a open-ended straight draw or flush draw looks to a lot of them like I'm bluffing, while really I'm just trying to build a big pot for when I do hit it. I think you just need to know which ones are paying attention to how you are playing, and which ones aren't.

As far as CB, HU I almost always do it. Against 2 players, it depends on my cards, the board, and the other players. Against 3 or more, I rarely CB. A lot of times they won't believe the CB indicates strength, but me betting again on the turn means they need a good hand to continue. But the beauty of it is is that most of the players don't consider the number of other players that are in the pot with me when I CB, so they can't come to any conclusions on whether I have a big hand or not. So when they see me bet with a big hand on the flop against 3 or more players, they remember me typically CB HU, and don't necessarily put me on a big hand.

Just my 2 cents...

[Landlord79]

I never try to put off a false image, they're just not paying attention. I will make some comments that make me look like a moron, this is much cheaper than actually bluffing off money to people who just won't remember.

I never Cbet into 3 opponents and will rarely Cbet into 2.

I've been experimenting w/ LP-A style that has been working so far. I've only done it for a few sessions, so no long term results so far. I play semi-passively OOP until I am in a situation to define my hand. A lot of limp-reraising & limp-calling pf with big aces (not AK, very table dependent.) I like to raise often IP to keep my image looser and because I have better control of the hand from there, I also limp behind with a lot of speculative hands. They'll pay you off often enough that you will usually get your money back. Just don't invest any money when you whiff the flop or have TPWK, just dump it if you don't have a rock solid read.

Post flop, you just make a hand most of the time and take them to Valu-town. I rarely bluff unless the situation is totally right. I might show one after some decent player has commented on how tight I am, but otherwise it's fit or fold.

Check out my blog for some session reviews that I did. I should be going to my favorite cardroom this weekend and I'll have a new blog up sometime next week.

Also, I am just finishing Angel Largay's book, it is definitely worth the money. PNL appears to be good as well, it will probably be my next reading assignment.

[CLB]

Re: table image - I don't really make any effort to slant my image one way or another, I just let this take care of itself. As others have stated, most of the players just aren't interested in formulating an approximation of what two cards you're holding, they're solely concerned with the two that they've got. I do make an effort to identify any players at the table who may actually be considering my image when they make their decisions and I try to keep that in mind when playing them, but for the most part I'm never really making moves to help give my opponents a certain impression of my play.

Re: cbetting w/ air - Literally never against multiple opponnents and there are a fair number of players who, for better or worse, I won't cbet even if we're heads up. In the live games I play a cbet is likely to get called by someone holding any piece of the flop, two missed overs, any conceivable draw (regardless of odds, implied or otherwise), etc. I don't typically fire two barrels and I know that it'll take atleast two most of the time. Usually when I do it (regardless of whether it works or not) I feel like it was a stupid play b/c my fold equity is so low and, while my AK my be in the lead, I'm not comfortable playing a big pot with AK unimproved. Nor do I think it's worth it against inferior players.

Seems like my comments mirror those of the other FR posters...I'll have to look for you SSNL thread and see if anything there makes me rethink my current style.

[GiantBuddha]

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Hey guys, i grind it out at 1/2 couple of times a month.

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I'll contribute something useful later this evening (promise), but is it really grinding if you only do it a couple times a month?

[Landlord79]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey guys, i grind it out at 1/2 couple of times a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll contribute something useful later this evening (promise), but is it really grinding if you only do it a couple times a month?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm waiting... I'd like to learn something new before I go to the casino this afternoon, impress me!

[GiantBuddha]

1) Making -EV plays to create an image is beyond useless. It's -EV.

2) Some players will fold to c-bets, some won't. Make sure you know who's who. C-betting multiway is not great no matter where you're playing. Bet your good hands and your strong draws.

3) Your opponents aren't all as bad as they play. What I mean is that most of your opponents will play terrible, but if they were to really try to play their best, they wouldn't be terrible. Many of them would still be pretty bad, but if they're playing to have fun, let them have fun. To this end:

4) Always say nice hand. And mean it. The more contempt, arrogance, whatever you have towards your opponents the less they'll want to pay you off.

5) Be friendly. Talk to your neighbors. People play live poker because they enjoy human companionship and comraderie. It doesn't matter that you're there to take their money. If you do it with a smile, they'll keep giving it to you. Don't sit around with your ipod and sunglasses on all the time. If you get bored and everyone at your table's a schmuck, whatever. But make an effort.

6) Always lead your sets. Overpairs/TPGK will raise you and you will stack them. That's 1/2. In fact, I believe you could play only pocket pairs and beat 1/2 for $15/hr+ unless it's a weak/tight game, in which case you should be able to run over it anyway.

7) Watch the other players. Most people have the same tells, but their range based on a tell may vary. For instance, I almost always know when someone sitting next to me holds a big pair. Occassionally it turns out to be just AK, but that's because this player thinks AK is the nuts. Watch every player. Learn. Improve. Profit.

8) Watch yourself. You have tells. Everyone has tells. Just notice the little things you do when you have a big hand. Maybe you pull your cards in a little closer. Maybe you stop playing with your chips. Maybe you start playing with your chips. Whatever you notice, you can use that either by not doing it anymore, or doing it while you are bluffing.

9) Have a tell. When you've got all your chips in and you want to get called, just do something fishy. Move your eyes this way or that way, fiddle with your cards a little. And then stop. People are curious. They want to know why you did whatever you did. They can only find out by calling. They also like calling. They can only win the pot by calling. People like winning pots.

Again, there is absolutely no reason to make -EV plays to create some kind of false image in the hopes of getting paid off later. First of all, the turn over in a 1/2 NL game at a casino is too fast for you to be able to maximize any advantage you might gain from a particular image. Second, many (not all) of your opponents are not paying attention to such things. Of those that notice, few of them will even make any adjustments. They'll say, "Is that the first hand you've played in three hours? Okay, I'll call with my 74 suited. After all, it is my favorite hand. And it's SOOOTED!" If you push your strong draws and sometimes something like AK before the flop, many of your opponents won't understand why you did it. There are enough +EV spots to mix up your play that -EV plays should not even enter your imagination.

I meant to post something last night, but then I decided to watch the Bourne Identity again before I go see the Bourne Ultimatum, so I kinda fell asleep before writing anything. Sorry.