How mucked is too mucked?

[CybrPunk]

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Cards that touch the muck in any way are dead and not retrievable. End of story.

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Don't you love when someone types "end of story" but is completely wrong?

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I can admit to being wrong here.

From Robert's Rules:

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2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.

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Based on the last line here I'd say the pot should be awarded to the player who accidentally mucked his hand.

I guess we learn something new everyday. And here I thought I was correct in my earlier post....

BTW, thanks for taking the time to slam me without posting the corrected info....

[sirpupnyc]

Sure. Kicking him out seems like overkill unless he's a habitual offender. But if Rick says the miscall can forfeit the pot, I'm all for that.

[AngusThermopyle]

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Lying guy gets the pot and half an hour away from the table for misrepresenting his hand.

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A time-out? In a cash game?

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If he is an old guy, he might only have a half hour left.

[jimmytrick]

How old were these guys and in what way is that important?

Ban for age discrimination.

[pfapfap]

The muck isn't magical. Well, in some places it is, but it shouldn't be. Player #1 should get the pot, as the other person mis-called his hand. It doesn't matter if his hand was retreivable at all, he wins.

...I wonder how that rule applies if it's not heads-up...

[KipBond]

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Player #1 should get the pot, as the other person mis-called his hand. It doesn't matter if his hand was retreivable at all, he wins.

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I think that's awful. Especially if this mis-call was unintentional (e.g. two same-color off-suit cards thought to be the same suit). I think the "protect your hand" rule should trump the "don't mis-call your hand" rule ... almost always if not always.

[RicoTubbs]

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Lying guy gets the pot and half an hour away from the table for misrepresenting his hand. Or chop it, but I have trouble finding a legit claim to the pot for foolish guy aside from best interest of the game.

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Doesn't "the best interest of the game" seem like a tremendously legit basis on which to make a ruling?

[bfc]

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The muck isn't magical. Well, in some places it is, but it shouldn't be.

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I couldn't agree more. Casino cosmopol in Stockholm has the strictest interpretation of this I've ever seen, resulting in rulings that imho are not in the best interests of the game. If one card touches the betting line then the hand is mucked - no exceptions. It's a case of a "magical betting line" rather than a "magical muck".

The worst case I've seen enforcing this rule was at showdown in a NLHE cash game for a relatively large pot. The board contained 3 kings and an inexperienced player only showed one holecard at showdown (the case king). His two cards (one faceup one facedown) lay on the betting line and the hand was ruled dead.

I have been on the receiving end of this ruling when I c-bet in position in a HU pot. I thought my opponent said raise and as he was counting out his chips I threw my cards just inside the beting line (nowhere near the muck). He had said call and my hand was dead. I learnt my lesson and no longer fold based on verbal declarations.

A related situation occurred last night. In a pot that's HU on the flop the 1 seat makes a large reraise after the 9 seat had bet. The reraise was a large stack of chips of different denominations but, despite appearances, was not an all-in bet - he had a single SEK20 (~USD$3) chip remaining. The 9 seat assumed he was all-in, called and showed his flopped set. His hand was ruled dead due to prematurely exposing his cards. To clarify, neither the 1 seat nor the dealer said all-in. The chip in front of the 1 seat would probably not have been visible to the player in seat 9 (obscured by the dealer).

[Mr Rick]

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If you are floor, what do you do?

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I would consider 2 options.
1) Award the pot to player 1
2) Tell player 2 he has a choice. He can take the pot and never play in the casino again. Or he can award the pot to player 1.

I like 2) better because it makes player 1 sweat a little and maybe learn something - and it makes player 2 throw up internally.

[RR]

Old man #1 wins. He clearly has the best hand. It becomes more interesting if he can't prove he had the best hand. If the floor can determine this player intentionally overcalled his hand the mucker wins by rule.