AA hands - 2 big losses - am i playing badly here??

[AllTheCheese]

omgwtfdissertations

Hand #1: Don't pot it on flop. Don't pot it on turn. B/f turn is standard, if you had bet smaller on flop and turn. 34 got there and a Queen shouldn't be pushing.

Hand #2: Move to bad beats.

-editted for clarity

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
omgwtfdissertations

[/ QUOTE ]Just trying to be helpful. I get tired of all the one line answers people give without any explanation. We don't learn poker from knowing WHAT we should have done better- we learn poker from understand WHY a certain play was wrong or might have been better.

and b/f the turn with this pot size seems pretty bad to me.

[AllTheCheese]

[ QUOTE ]

and b/f the turn with this pot size seems pretty bad to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

obv. I meant that in-line with my previous comments on betting smaller. Like if he bet $2 on the flop and then $4 on the turn, he can b/f.

[ddagt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
omgwtfdissertations

[/ QUOTE ]Just trying to be helpful. I get tired of all the one line answers people give without any explanation. We don't learn poker from knowing WHAT we should have done better- we learn poker from understand WHY a certain play was wrong or might have been better.


[/ QUOTE ]

Jeff please ignore his comment, I agree the reasoning behind decisions is important, if people don't want to read/discuss that they can ignore it.

[AllTheCheese]

:-/ Unnecessary really. I didn't criticize what anyone wrote, nor did I criticize anyone for writing it.

[ddagt]

we're cool, I just don't want anyone to be hesitant to put in a thoughtful/detailed response, because they really help me!

[da_fume]

Grunching-

I wouldn't say either was played horribly. In hand 1 you can bet less on the flop and check through the turn. There aren't many draws and you can get money in the pot on the riv easily when he just has a Q. I don't have any problems with hand 2.

[da_fume]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: on paired boards, the chances someone hit his set are smaller, simply because there is only one unpaired card on the board. Of course he could have 65, but I don't think he would raise those PF. Therefore I think call in hand 2 is absolutely ok...

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to be nit-picky: In hand two the villain limped UTG+1 and cold called the 3 bet. Note this retard. You realize he went all-in with basically nothing on the flop right?

[maca9]

[ QUOTE ]
It's possible that you could have gotten away depending on the action. On this board, a crai on the turn usually means you're beat.

But the point is not how to avoid getting stacked. The point is how to get appropriate value from your hand. The question you have to ask yourself when you see a flop and you have an overpair or TPTK kind of hand is "if villain has a hand he is willing to get it all in with on this board, do I expect to have the best of it?" If the answer is "no", you want to take steps to avoid building the bot so big that you are committed to getting it all in, because when that happens you'll be in bad shape.

When you hear people talk about SPR (stack to pot ratio), this is what it's all about. Your SPR in hand 1 is 8 (villain has 8x the pot on the flop). So the question is, will he put in 8 times this pot on this board with a hand worse than AA? It isn't likely that he will. With an overpair you can expect people to put in about 4 or 5x the pot with a worse hand; beyond that and they aren't sticking around without a hand that is probably better than yours.

Since we recognize that villain will probably only put in 4 or 5x the pot with a hand like AQ or JJ, betting the pot on every street isn't necessary. In fact, JJ might put in 4x the pot, but it probably isn't doing it with you potting every street. He'll need to get a sense somewhere that you are weak. That's why checking behind on the turn might be most effective here.

Now let's say the pot was twice as much- you guys managed to get it to $6 instead of 3. Now your SPR is around 4 and you should be looking to build the pot as quickly and aggressively as possible. Why? Because villain will put in his full stack with a much wider ranger of hands now. He won't have a chance to get away once he realizes you really are strong. So while he still might have a set and AQ,JJ etc. in his range, you'll see AQ and JJ more often when all the chips go in.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks Jeff76.


Thats the best explanation I've ever had for SPR and why pot size is important.

Now it makes sense!!!


Its not about playng so you avoid getting stacked in a given situation. Its about playing the hand a way which mazimizes your value so that in aggregate across many hands ("long run") you win the most.

Part of that long run will include losing to sets, bad calls getting lucky etc....But if you maximise value by playing better SPR you will make more when against a worse hand so overall you'll make more.


I hope I got that right. Certainly made sense reading it.


Thanks again. Awesome post.

[maca9]

[ QUOTE ]

When you hear people talk about SPR (stack to pot ratio), this is what it's all about. Your SPR in hand 1 is 8 (villain has 8x the pot on the flop). So the question is, will he put in 8 times this pot on this board with a hand worse than AA? It isn't likely that he will. With an overpair you can expect people to put in about 4 or 5x the pot with a worse hand; beyond that and they aren't sticking around without a hand that is probably better than yours.

Since we recognize that villain will probably only put in 4 or 5x the pot with a hand like AQ or JJ, betting the pot on every street isn't necessary. In fact, JJ might put in 4x the pot, but it probably isn't doing it with you potting every street. He'll need to get a sense somewhere that you are weak. That's why checking behind on the turn might be most effective here.

Now let's say the pot was twice as much- you guys managed to get it to $6 instead of 3. Now your SPR is around 4 and you should be looking to build the pot as quickly and aggressively as possible. Why? Because villain will put in his full stack with a much wider ranger of hands now. He won't have a chance to get away once he realizes you really are strong. So while he still might have a set and AQ,JJ etc. in his range, you'll see AQ and JJ more often when all the chips go in.

[/ QUOTE ]


1 more question........


Is SPR only relevent to stacks compared to the pot after the flop?

Obv the actual ratio of Stack to pot changes as pot increases with betting on each street. So when SPR is discussed in terms of strategy its always SPR after the flop?