Play a Hand With the Masters #3 Results and Panel Comments

[Lloyd]

I wouldn't expect too many responses for the next couple of days given the Holiday. I'm waiting for some responses as well as I think there is a TON to learn from this.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone want to elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Small flop CR = I am bluffing or have a big hand (for this board), followed by:
Turn check/call = I am a jackass and my hand tops out at one pair

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone want to elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Small flop CR = I am bluffing or have a big hand (for this board), followed by:
Turn check/call = I am a jackass and my hand tops out at one pair

[/ QUOTE ]

or

Turn check/call: I am trapping you and letting you do the betting for me (if Villian reads you as an aggressive player).

Yes, this Villian played like a Donkey, but Villian could have easily played the same with a hand that did beat us. I bet when Hero pushed with 5/7 on that river and got called he thought he was heading for the rail and his stomach turned......until he saw the 10's.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn check/call: I am trapping you and letting you do the betting for me (if Villian reads you as an aggressive player).

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me one hand from a non-donkey that minCR's, check/calls a 975Q board with two hearts to trap a LAG with any two.

There's, like, no way, and while I agree that the push on the river is a bit much it's only because A9 might fold there.

If he *is* a donkey, which the turn check/call basically confirms, he almost never has 2 pair beat on the turn and the sole question is whether the heart makes him fold too much stuff to value bet.

[CardSharpCook]

Why do you think he played this "like a donkey"? [ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Jason: I actually thought the villain played this hand well. I trusted him enough to be able to make a big call. I'm not in love with his flop play.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Grandnu, I thought your line was weak/tight, lacked acknowledgement of the information received throughout the hand, and is symptomatic of a weak tourney's player approach in that weak tourney players simply don't know how to make the most of their good hands.

Also, (to everyone) divorce yourself of the notion that good players never pay you off when you have the best of it. Good players make tough calls. Yes, they also make big folds, but these are the players willing to "risk their tourney life" if they think their lousy pair is good. I remember from a recent ESPN show "The Best Hand I Ever Played" Doyle calling with Jack-high because he thought Johnny Moss was bluffing a lesser blown str8 draw. The episode also included Howard Lederer calling down Johnny Chan with 33 when Johnny fired on every street.

[Roman]

excellent hand/commentary

nbet on riv strassa

[NoahSD]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think he played this "like a donkey"? [ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Jason: I actually thought the villain played this hand well. I trusted him enough to be able to make a big call. I'm not in love with his flop play.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Grandnu, I thought your line was weak/tight, lacked acknowledgement of the information received throughout the hand, and is symptomatic of a weak tourney's player approach in that weak tourney players simply don't know how to make the most of their good hands.

Also, (to everyone) divorce yourself of the notion that good players never pay you off when you have the best of it. Good players make tough calls. Yes, they also make big folds, but these are the players willing to "risk their tourney life" if they think their lousy pair is good. I remember from a recent ESPN show "The Best Hand I Ever Played" Doyle calling with Jack-high because he thought Johnny Moss was bluffing a lesser blown str8 draw. The episode also included Howard Lederer calling down Johnny Chan with 33 when Johnny fired on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, villain had an overpair on the flop, which is a really hard hand to fold on all streets but the river here. On the river, he clearly made a big call.

That said, I think villain played this pretty badly. Justin explained why better than I can.

Can you explain why you think the hand was played well, Jason?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Grandnu, I thought your line was weak/tight, lacked acknowledgement of the information received throughout the hand, and is symptomatic of a weak tourney's player approach in that weak tourney players simply don't know how to make the most of their good hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I was in the same camp as most everyone else in the hand, from what I've read of others posts. We all put Villian on a huge range of hands, some that we beat, some that we didn't.

Villians min-check-raise on the flop and then check on the turn basically confirms his "donkness". But, the danger with donkeys is that they're unpredictable.

I know plenty of them who will call that 500 chip bet on the turn with just a flush draw. And when they hit it on the river, try for a check-raise again.

If Villian had turned over the 6/8 or two hearts on the river, we'd be condemning Hero for his terrible play on the river. I think we're being a bit too results-oriented here.

I still think that our opponents range of hands on the river is too large for us to "value bet". Any bet we make essentially commits us for our remaining chips. With 1800 chips already in the pot, and it's checked to us, we can see if we win a nice pot without putting our tournament at risk.

I still don't believe that the 600 chip bet that some suggested on the river is worth it. Some players said they'd bet 600 and then fold to a check-raise. So they're spending 2,400 chips to win 600 (the 1800 in the pot they'll definetely lose by folding, plus the extra 600 they invested).

And for those who advocated betting 600 with the intention of calling a push, they're risking their remaining chips (around 1600 or so from what I recall) to win another 600 chips from Villian, and possibly be sent out of the tournament.

I think the "value bet" on the river applies more to a limit game, rather than a NL tournament where you can't just reach back into your pocket.

Yes, Hero did very nicely for himself this time. But most of the time someone with 10/10 isn't going to pay off your push, but someone who has you beat will be sending you packing. And Villians range of hands was so large that many of his holdings would have been improved by that river.

Also, may I remind you, that two of the masters went with the river check as well.

I'm all about accumulating chips, but I think the risk:reward ratio for a river bet just isn't +EV in the long run in these situations.

[ericicecream]

Very interesting river play here, Jason. I think if it is used at the right time it can be a vital weapon. I wonder, how often would you make this play in similar situations?

Great comments by all the guys on the panel and well put together Lloyd [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[grossmeyer]

First off, I think this was the most interesting hand that has been studied in this series so far. I did a double take when I saw the push on the river. Personally, I've tried pushing (or overbetting) the river to represent "air" (instead of making a regular size bet) and have had some success with people calling me down. From the flop play of the villain, I interpreted the min-check raise as a sign of weakness; I play on lower buy-in tourneys and see this "strategy" used every once in a while. It seems to almost always indicate weakness, and if you have already determined that the person has no idea what they are doing (relatively speaking of course), then you KNOW they are just trying to get a cheap fold. I would not have guessed such silly playing would be present in a $650 satellite, so with that assumption, my inclination was to play the whole hand scared. Kudos to Jason for his line of reasoning.

I agree that the check on the turn is the biggest clue that the Villain had top pair/overpair &lt;QQ and got scared when the Queen hit. What surprises me is that he would call our bet at that point if he was so scared of the queen. I suppose he was praying that we were on the flush draw. But then he called our all-in on the river after the flush hit, so I guess he thought we either had AK or missed our straight (how he would put us on a straight draw I don't know...). Regardless, villain's thinking in this hand is simply alien to me (I guess (hope!) that's a good thing). Can't wait for the next hand!!!


I will now proceed to grossly misuse this newfound information and spew my chips on the river to a donk who is holding 4 high. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

-Gross