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#11
10-10-2007, 12:09 PM
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Re: Never coldcall rule (theorish)
[ QUOTE ]
Barry...I agree that we need to keep the flexibilty of a cold call in our arsenal...to your KK example...I really don't cold call KK OOP even vs an aggressive player...too hard to play it well post and too many boards will scare the oiriginal raiser IMO...is this a leak in my game? I will coldcall with AA but rarely with KK and QQ [/ QUOTE ] Against a player who I know who is going to cont. bet, even when he only has 17BB's left after the hand (he may push) OR one who is strong preflop but gets spewy on flops, I like to flat call with KK in some spots. Against good TAGs, I almost always RR and against unknowns, the same. Anyway, one thing that comes from this post is that flat calling is usually not great (I agree), but that very specific attention to detail, especially in LP situations, is key. Barry 
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#12
10-10-2007, 12:43 PM
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Re: Never coldcall rule (theorish)
(Against Barry, we all flatcall pre and then check-minraise the flop, of course. That should go without saying.)
Most of you guys are talking about spots where it's call or raise, but I think the OP was focusing on spots where he should be folding. And I think he's absolutely right about that; with stacks of tourney depth, there's less room for outplaying than it may appear, and a big part of the real 'outplaying' is preflop hand selection, most notably knowledge of the Gap Concept.
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#13
10-11-2007, 05:36 AM
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Re: Never coldcall rule (theorish)
any more opinions on this?
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#14
10-11-2007, 09:39 AM
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Re: Never coldcall rule (theorish)
People (especially newbs) generally call too much, and having a raise/fold mindset is an easy way of correcting many of the errors associated with this.
There are occasions when cold-calling is clearly the correct play though: Playing drawing hands (esp in position, and multi-way) when deep-stacked As mentioned as a way of disguising the strength of your hand. When playing an ABC player who will fire one-barrel post-flop. If you think he's likely missed you can call his first barrel, and if he doesn't fire again take it away on the turn.
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#15
10-11-2007, 11:02 AM
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Re: Never coldcall rule (theorish)
In general, the only hands that should be Cold-calling a raise are hands that are too strong to fold (b/c they are a favorite against villains range, have too good of implied odds, etc.) but can't stand a 4-bet.
For example, if a player in MP makes is 4xBB and I have JJ on the button, I could re-raise, but assuming we are deep enough, what am I going to do if he shoves? The short answer is, I have no clue. We've put ourselves in a pretty bad spot. If we can't stand a 4-bet, just call PF. The key though is to make sure the hand you are cold-calling with is actually ahead of villain's range PF (better than the middle most hand in his range).
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#16
10-11-2007, 11:33 AM
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Re: Never coldcall rule (theorish)
[ QUOTE ]
The key though is to make sure the hand you are cold-calling with is actually ahead of villain's range PF (better than the middle most hand in his range). [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what "middle most" means, Sherman. Barry
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#17
10-11-2007, 11:57 AM
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Re: Never coldcall rule (theorish)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The key though is to make sure the hand you are cold-calling with is actually ahead of villain's range PF (better than the middle most hand in his range). [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what "middle most" means, Sherman. Barry [/ QUOTE ] Well, the FTP Tournament Guide has a chapter by Andy Bloch on starting hands for NLHE tournaments. He takes a mathematical approach to the "Gap concept". Here is a short version of his demonstration. Say rather than two cards you were dealt a number from zero to 100. Now let's say you know that a particular player in the CO is willing to raise with number 70+. You are on the button. Which numbers should you call with? Obviously you aren't calling with anything below 70. But should you call with 71? The answer is also no. While you do win if he has 70, you lose the rest of the time. So you need to be better than his "average" (or middle) hand, which in this case is 85. So you need to have an 85 or better to call this player in this spot. So applying that to poker, you need to have a hand that is better than your opponents "average" opening hand to profitably call PF. Make sense? Sherman Edit: To point out there are considerations in actually poker hands as well. Obviously if the PF pot is huge, you don't have to beat at least his "average" hand. But if there were no antes or blinds, you would need to beat his average hand to be profitable. As blinds and antes become larger, you may not need to beat his average hand to make calling profitable.
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#18
10-11-2007, 12:16 PM
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Re: Never coldcall rule (theorish)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The key though is to make sure the hand you are cold-calling with is actually ahead of villain's range PF (better than the middle most hand in his range). [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what "middle most" means, Sherman. Barry [/ QUOTE ] Lets say villain is opening top 10%. To be ahead of the "middle most" you'd want to be playing top 5%, since then every hand you are playing is better than more than half of villains range. If villain is raising top 10%, half the time he has a top 5% hand, and half the time the hand is 6%-10%. If you call with a hand from the 6%-10% range, you have a hand worse than his more than half the time, so you're calling while behind most of the time. Obviously there's like a gazillion other factors to calling besides that, but it's something to take note of. The key is that you have a hand, and villain has a range of hands, and you want your hand to be in the top half of villain's range in order to have the best hand the majority of the time. I think some people (not you, but I've seen it from others) who think villain is raising top 10%, and I have a top 10% hand, so I should play, and this is totally incorrect. You don't have a top 10% hand, you just have a hand (whatever it is) and you need it to compare favorably to villain's range, not simply be in it. Like I said before, unless the guy shoves there are like a zillion other factors that come into play. This analysis would only come into play absolutely if there were no pot to begin with and villain was shoving. Then you would be getting no monetary odds and would simply rely on hand strength v. villain's range to make the decision. Also, some hands in the top 5% obviously play differently against villain's range than others (like 99 and AQ are going to have different winning chances, although they are both near the bottom of top 5%.) However, this does not make the concept useless. Like if someone is shoving AT+ KQ and 66+ you need almost 3:2 pot odds to call with AJ, even though AJ is better than some hands in villain's range. Anyway, I've rambled way too long, I hope there is something useful in this post, because I'm starting to think there isn't.
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#20
10-11-2007, 02:57 PM
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Re: Never coldcall rule (theorish)
[ QUOTE ]
I coldcall agressive ppl all day long. I am very positive its +ev if you do it right. [/ QUOTE ] There's something to that. In the FTP strat book Gavin Smith says he practically never reraises, but instead will often coldcall with any 2 cards. His logic was that by reraising, the villian is likely to feel you're showing him up and is more compelled to outplay you for spite + the bigger pot than if you simply call and bet the flop... he'll usually miss it, and can then say "ok you got lucky, I can let this go and get you next time". Seems to work for him. Guess you just have to be very willing to fire 2-3 bullets here and there to make it work.
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