Anyone not think this is a standard raise?

[Xhad]

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i'd raise but i wouldn't hate limping.

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In all honesty the actual EV of raising vs. limping is not nearly as important as the fact that no one in that thread has presented a real argument for limping

[blackasthma]

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i'd raise but i wouldn't hate limping.

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In all honesty the actual EV of raising vs. limping is not nearly as important as the fact that no one in that thread has presented a real argument for limping

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Argument for limping is that earlier limpers could hold Axh, Kxh, AQ, or KQ. There's already 4 people in this pot before you make your move, and any of those hands are quite possible. I initially labeled this a "silly" raise in the other thread, but I really think the difference is marginal. Postflop play with this hand far outweighs preflop play in terms of EV. I plan to send a copy of this thread to the Capitol in DC for the next scheduled filibuster...

[Xhad]

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Argument for limping is that earlier limpers could hold Axh, Kxh, AQ, or KQ

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This is as meaningful as saying "I didn't threebet AKs because the pfr could hold a pair even though there were 3 coldcallers." Not as greivous an error EV-wise but it involves the same errors in thinking.

[blackasthma]

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Argument for limping is that earlier limpers could hold Axh, Kxh, AQ, or KQ

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This is as meaningful as saying "I didn't threebet AKs because the pfr could hold a pair even though there were 3 coldcallers." Not as greivous an error EV-wise but it involves the same errors in thinking.

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ok, then does that mean you also raise with QJo in this situation???

[Xhad]

No, because your equity is significantly smaller in that case. Run it through pokerstove.

EDIT: here's QJo against the same ranges I gave in the mid-limit thread:

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Operation canceled... 19,597,844 games processed in 46 seconds.

Board:
Dead:

Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
Player 1: 19.006 % 17.838 % 2.593 % 79.569 % 22+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo
Player 2: 14.332 % 13.136 % 2.656 % 84.208 % 22-TT, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q7s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo
Player 3: 14.325 % 13.128 % 2.656 % 84.216 % 22-TT, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q7s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo
Player 4: 14.339 % 13.144 % 2.652 % 84.204 % 22-TT, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q7s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo
Player 5: 12.224 % 11.405 % 1.856 % 86.739 % Random
Player 6: 12.239 % 11.418 % 1.859 % 86.723 % Random
Player 7: 13.535 % 11.865 % 3.584 % 84.552 % QJo

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Note that you are an underdog here, while QJs's equity was almost the same as UTG's at about 17%. Being suited really does matter that much when you have upwards of 3 opponents. Again, this is mostly just a math problem, to the extent that basically any argument that doesn't even discuss the math is going to be meaningless.

[blackasthma]

ya...

[Frond]

Bottom line is we have to exploit any advantage that we can in this game, be it small or large and this is one of them.

[bernie]

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this is a raise, but i don't think limping is horrible. you are passing up on some equity, but a lot of the advantage with this hand will come in how well one plays it postflop. my guess is that some of the less experienced players are saying limp it, which is probably best for them as they likely aren't as adept in postflop play quite yet.

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PB,

Points already made in this thread about raising, as I knew they would be. Thanks to those that covered it.

My contention was that this is a default raise for every good winning player I know. Would they limp sometimes here? Maybe. But that's a deviation from the standard.

Usually in this spot those players don't deviate their play by way of limping with this type of hand(keep in mind the table texture we're dealing with). If anything, they get more aggressive with some lesser hands like lesser suited cons.

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my guess is that some of the less experienced players are saying limp it, which is probably best for them as they likely aren't as adept in postflop play quite yet.

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It's interesting that you say this because when I see the majority of people limping in this spot this is exactly how I see their game: I figure if they're doing this, they're likely going to miss other bets postflop in other situations similar as far as value betting/raising. And it's usually true. It's almost like a domino effect from street to street and a good indication as to how they'll play. Especially since most players get more conservative the further into a hand they get. It does seem to have a linear effect.

In a way, I'd recommend lesser experienced players to raise this preflop so as to gain that equity since they're more likely to miss equity postflop. At least get it pre where you know you have an edge. It's also a good, cheap spot to learn how to get used to aggression. It can also have an effect of minimizing one's postflop mistakes, -EV-wise, since the pot will be bigger.

b

[Fnord]

Another reason to raise spots like this is to get the table used to you raising. Once the super-fish know you're raising hands worse than 99+ AQ+, they will know that they have to play raised pots with you to get action (plus they LOVE putting a rack in pre-flop too.)

Had a session a couple weeks ago where I went card dead for 3 orbits, then when I came in hard 2 super-donators considered calling then folded. Next hand I played I raised QJo on the button behind 3 limpers (a slightly -EV play) lost to A8o unimproved, then raised a couple standard unpaired hands with mixed results. For the rest of the night I got wonderful pre-flop cold-calls for 2 and 3 bets.

[Xhad]

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It's interesting that you say this because when I see the majority of people limping in this spot this is exactly how I see their game: I figure if they're doing this, they're likely going to miss other bets postflop in other situations similar as far as value betting/raising. And it's usually true. It's almost like a domino effect from street to street and a good indication as to how they'll play.

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Yeah my reaction to the arguments against limping was "do these people even know what equity is?" I don't care that it's only a small edge, it's an OBVIOUS edge and I think it's self-evident that you shouldn't pass up a +EV bet without a damn good reason.

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Another reason to raise spots like this is to get the table used to you raising. Once the super-fish know you're raising hands worse than 99+ AQ+, they will know that they have to play raised pots with you to get action (plus they LOVE putting a rack in pre-flop too.)

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Yeah this raise is even more important against fishy but observant opponents than it is against fishy unobservant opponents. Which makes it even more WTF that the midstakes regulars aren't all doing it.