J,8o in BB

[sharpie]

I'm another nit who folds PF. Lowest 2 gapper I'll go is Q9 usually. I call any 2 suited, though.

Oink, have you run any numbers or seen other players call in these spots? I'm wondering if I'm too tight here.

[PokerSparky]

[ QUOTE ]
Lowest 2 gapper I'll go is Q9 usually. I call any 2 suited, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here, but I would love an excuse to play more hands in this spot.

[Zach6668]

Assuming you're better postflop than the players (we should be vs the type to coldcall here), even with the positional disadvantage, I'm fairly certain we can show a positive result with 2 gappers as low as T7o. I've even called with 96o before, but it could have been what contributed to my big downswing, lol.

I wish I had a big enough DB to back this up, though.

If/when I get to several hundred thousand in this DB, I'll check it out... it'll obv be years from now, and I'll have forgotten about it, though.

[sharpie]

Not sure if this proves anything, but what do you guys think about this?

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500,338,415 games 571.875 secs 874,908 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.242% 15.35% 00.89% 76793076 4469834.08 { J8o }
Hand 1: 34.081% 32.54% 01.55% 162787983 7730263.67 { 55+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, A9o+, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 24.967% 23.22% 01.75% 116180026 8740706.50 { 77-55, ATs-A2s, KJs-K7s, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, AJo-A8o, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 3: 24.711% 23.11% 01.60% 115626697 8010332.92 { 77-22, AJs-A2s, K7s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A8o, KTo+, QJo, JTo }

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Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

100,797,754 games 113.891 secs 885,037 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.288% 16.14% 00.15% 16271166 146315.75 { 32o }
Hand 1: 32.930% 31.51% 01.42% 31759183 1433955.08 { 55+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, A9o+, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 25.643% 24.14% 01.50% 24334989 1513050.33 { 77-55, ATs-A2s, KJs-K7s, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, AJo-A8o, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 3: 25.139% 23.73% 01.41% 23918210 1421120.33 { 77-22, AJs-A2s, K7s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A8o, KTo+, QJo, JTo }

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Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990,856,674 games 1154.766 secs 858,058 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.233% 15.50% 00.74% 153534387 7315973.33 { K5o }
Hand 1: 32.939% 31.42% 01.52% 311328546 15047930.50 { 55+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, A9o+, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 25.483% 23.87% 01.62% 236480907 16017541.17 { 77-55, ATs-A2s, KJs-K7s, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, AJo-A8o, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 3: 25.345% 23.88% 01.46% 236619089 14512857.50 { 77-22, AJs-A2s, K7s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A8o, KTo+, QJo, JTo }

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Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

216,563,158 games 250.344 secs 865,062 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 20.648% 20.42% 00.23% 44222324 493056.00 { 65o }
Hand 1: 31.558% 30.19% 01.37% 65379687 2963663.17 { 55+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, A9o+, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 24.133% 22.68% 01.46% 49108544 3154493.17 { 77-55, ATs-A2s, KJs-K7s, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, AJo-A8o, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 3: 23.661% 22.33% 01.34% 48350043 2891923.50 { 77-22, AJs-A2s, K7s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, AJo-A8o, KTo+, QJo, JTo }

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Hands that are clear folds have similar equity to J8o. 65o has alot more equity, which shows how important the chance to hit a straight is multiway. Interestingly T9 only has about 18.2% equity, presumably due to the chance of being dominated.

[Zach6668]

That's definitely interesting.

I'll be giving this some more thought/talking to more LHEers that I have on MSN/AIM to get their input.

[sharpie]

Welp, I just debunked my theory, I ran a stove and 63o has more equity than J9o. lolz, I guess it's the threat of domination that makes these hands appear worse.

[Zach6668]

hahaha.

I'm pretty sure the lesson here is fold J9o, and 3-bet 63o.

[sebastien]

i see on my pt i loose last month 0.20BB/100 in BB position.
i think it s really bad. but i don t know really how is bad.
do you have an average number i would have in BB rating?
tks

[Zach6668]

That's not bad at all, actually.

In my DB, I'm (0.18). I vaguely remember hearing .20 was decent though.

It's BB/hand, btw. If you're losing 0.2 BB/100, you're doing VERY well. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[thepizzlefosho]

sure 63o has better equity, but when the flop comes K83 with two of a suit you might have the best hand but you are going to have a lot of trouble just calling down with bottom pair in a multiway pot and hoping for the best.

The J8o actually has a chance to hit TP so that you can play it well and maximize the value when ahead, and minimize your losses when you are drawing slim but need to get to SD. I don't think we can say the same thing about 63o type hands.