LO8 - Too Weak?

[1MoreFish4U]

I am not sure if I am posting the HH properly.

Long term is this a sensible fold, or have I been kicked in the head so many times I have gotten really weak-tight?

Absolute Poker
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with :9d :4d :8s :7c
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: :10c :jc :8d (5SB, 5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, [color=#cc0000]UTG+1 bets</font>, [color=#cc0000]Button raises</font>, SB folds, Hero folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: :6h (4.5BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, [color=#cc0000]Button bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: :3d (6.5BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, [color=#cc0000]Button bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8.5BB

[bbartlog]

I'd call one bet on the flop if closing the action (or if I thought it was very unlikely that someone would raise behind me). But since you're facing two bets I think folding is correct. You have to consider that while you would have odds to continue if your opponents are just betting good draws, this is balanced by the fact that you're basically drawing dead if someone has Q9xx.

[Borys313]

This fold is not that obvious, because alot more players play A with low cardss and for someone to have both a Q and 9 in his hand would be a bit unusall unles he has a strictly high hand like KQJ9. I believe that you are probably up vs a club draw and some other misterious hand.

I run a few equity tests. And you are in bad shape only if you are vs a club draw and a bigger str-8 draw. Of course if you are vs a made nut-str8 you are screwed but that want be the case that often.

First I wanted to advice you to 3-bet and try to make the pot heads up but maybe a flat call is better and if UTG doesnt make it 3-bets you are very likely to get a relatively cheap showdown. If the heat continues you have to reevaluate.

Edit: The hand history looks shity, bacause you didnt select a 2+2 forum output/format

[Borys313]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call one bet on the flop if closing the action (or if I thought it was very unlikely that someone would raise behind me). But since you're facing two bets I think folding is correct. You have to consider that while you would have odds to continue if your opponents are just betting good draws, this is balanced by the fact that you're basically drawing dead if someone has Q9xx.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats all true but you have to find out somehow where you stand. And of course there are some situations where 2nd nuts is worthless (like A6 to 543 board for low) but generally when you play limit 2ns nuts is a damn good hand. And this flop JT8 is pretty much the best I can imagine to have the seond nuts for 3 reasons.

A) No one can have the nuts with any AX combination (on QJT a simple AK combination makes the nuts and its common occurance)

B) The action on turn will be minimall because no low will hit.

C) Its hard to escape for low for someone who had an A high flush draw and mises it.

[1MoreFish4U]

"Edit: The hand history looks shity, bacause you didnt select a 2+2 forum output/format"

Where &amp; how do I get this?

[Buzz]

Fish - It's actually a close decision.

As simulated against four opponents with random hands (which your opponents admittedly don't exactly have), one of the four will have flopped a higher straight roughly 24% of the time and one of the four will have flopped an identical straight roughtly 18% of the time. Thus roughly two hands out of five, one of your opponents will have also flopped a straight. And one of your four opponents will have flopped a set roughly 15% of the time.

When you get to the river, your hand will be the best (or tied for the best) roughly 32% (same simulation). Will an opponent who flopped the same non-nut straight as you still be in on the action or not? (Nobody knows the exact answer to that, as it obviously depends on how your opponent who also would have played the straight plays after the flop). If so, since there will come to be a back-door low hand roughly one time out of four, and if nobody folds a hand that would go on to beat your straight<ul type="square">• 32%*.82*.75 you scoop
• 32%*.82*.25 you split with low
• 32%*.18*.75 you split with an identical high, and
• 32%*.18*.25 you get quartered.
• about 3% you scoop with a miscellaneous better hand than a straight, and
• about 64% you lose.

That's
• 20% you scoop with your straight
• 7% you split with low
• 4% you split with an identical high, and
• 1% you get quartered,
• 3% you scoop with a miscellaneous better hand than a straight, and
• 64% you lose.[/list]The numbers add up to 99% instead of 100% because of the way I rounded. No big deal; pretty crude anyhow.

The question is, "Can you knock someone off a hand that would beat or tie you if that opponent continued?"

I don't know the answer. I think in a very tight game, maybe. But in a very loose game, probably not. It really does depend on how an opponent who might have ended up with a better hand than you plays.

I'd generally bet this flop and see what happens. You might win the thing right there. If people call, you have to be wary of being up against a better straight, and/or a flush draw, and/or a set or two pairs (which are full house draws). And then you have to go through the mental effort of figuring out what your opponent may hold.

If you bet the flop and get raised, it could either be from somebody with
1. a better straight, possibly with re-draws to a flush and/or boat,
2. the same straight as you, possibly with re-draws,
3. somebody with a flush draw, possibly with outs for a higher straight and/or full house, or
4. somebody with a set or two or three pairs, possibly with additional outs for something better than a queen high straight.

Thus a flopped non-nut hand is not an easy hand to play. you're more likely to get out-played by someone with a worse hand than to out-play somebody with a better hand.

I would probably have continued, but you folding was fine too. If you do plan on continuing with this hand after this flop, you definitely should directly bet this flop, hoping to shake at least somebody loose from a hand, and also hoping to get some sort of read on an opponent who stays with you.

If you check and call, you can't tell what is going on. You can't tell what a late opponent betting holds. If you more or less expected everyone else to check to the last position better who would then bet regardless of his cards, you'd do better to play for a check/raise, hoping to get one-on-one with someone holding four random cards.

So it's not simple. There is no way around knowing your opponents. Reasonable advice to beginners is to fold such hands, but if you're the best player at the table, maybe you don't want to do that.

Buzz

[sfgiants]

[ QUOTE ]
"Edit: The hand history looks shity, bacause you didnt select a 2+2 forum output/format"

Where &amp; how do I get this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I use the converter on Flop Turn River . Use the "Format" dropdown menu on the left side and switch it to 2+2. Hope that helps...

[BigBadBabar]

i don't fold this

[1MoreFish4U]

Here is another attempt at posting the hand properly.

I did feel as though I had played the hand weakly. Being OOP, I decided to check &amp; call one bet. If it was checked around I would have fired on the turn. UTG+1 would bet out with a big pair, 2 pair, a set, a straight or a flush draw. I had no read on the button.

My main concern here was getting involved OOP in a situation where I couldn't improve, could be drawing dead, and would have to rethink my approach if the 3rd flush card fell or the board paired.

As it turned out I was splitting with the raiser - who could have outdrawn me for a bigger straight but didn't.

I do bet out these hands more often than checking them - was just working on my first coffee and clearing out the cobwebs when this hand came up.

Had it been one bet to me instead of two I would have generally called, then bet out the turn if no flush card hit. I figured that the most likely scenario was a flush draw - and it turned out I was 100% wrong.

Thanks to all for the replies.

Absolute Poker ( handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)


Final Pot:

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. </font>

[1MoreFish4U]

Sorry I can't figure out the Hand Converter. Does it maybe only work for holdem?

Anyway, UTG+1 had As Ac Qd 7s

Button had 9s Ad 7h 10s