50NL: I make a weird spot for myself in unraised pot - Page 3

jk1986 · #21 06-20-2007, 07:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The min-three-bet is silly. Your idea of its value is predicated on the notion that a real three-bet and a weak three-bet appear completely differently to villain, so that he'll be able to escape with lesser hands if you put in a real bet, but will "sense weakness" and shove or call with those same hands if you bet weakly. This is improbable, especially because bet/min-3-bet is the way that a lot of donkeys at these stakes play their monsters.

"Gee, he reraised to $16. Bottom two no good. Muck!"
"Gee, he minreraised me. He's full of it! Shove!"

For reals? And if you're wrong about that, and I really believe that you are, then the only difference between the weak bet and a strong bet is that you allow draws to play profitably against you. Even if you were to check/fold a club turn, villain can still call correctly (profitably) on the flop with Ac2c. Allowing your opponent to play perfectly against you in that situation is a massive mistake on your part.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

tiger_hall · #22 06-20-2007, 07:29 AM

this is a horrible position and nothing you can do as ur BB..
i think first we need to think possible hands that are pushing all in... do u really think that someone who has a set is shoving on the flop?? i think he would call ur raise and shove turn....
it seems highly likely that he has two pair IMO... it all depends on reads you have, if you think he could be shoving with top pair then i would definitely call

Check_The_Nuts · #23 06-20-2007, 10:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The min-three-bet is silly. Your idea of its value is predicated on the notion that a real three-bet and a weak three-bet appear completely differently to villain, so that he'll be able to escape with lesser hands if you put in a real bet, but will "sense weakness" and shove or call with those same hands if you bet weakly. This is improbable, especially because bet/min-3-bet is the way that a lot of donkeys at these stakes play their monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw the min3bet moves more at lower limits like 10NL and 25NL. At 50NL there are very few fish on UB who are so bad they still min3bet their monsters. Take this guy for example, he made a real raise on the flop with top two. I don't think it looks particularly strong. Also, I'm fairly certain I had been raising flops really loose this session.

[ QUOTE ]

"Gee, he reraised to $16. Bottom two no good. Muck!"
"Gee, he minreraised me. He's full of it! Shove!"
even a tag wouldn't fold to that min3bet. I'm certain. I'm not sure I'd like the play as much versus a decent player though

For reals? And if you're wrong about that, and I really believe that you are, then the only difference between the weak bet and a strong bet is that you allow draws to play profitably against you. Even if you were to check/fold a club turn, villain can still call correctly (profitably) on the flop with Ac2c. Allowing your opponent to play perfectly against you in that situation is a massive mistake on your part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the point, I think that his play is extremely unbalanced and he never has a draw. The other difference between the weak bet and the strong bet is I could actually fold after the weak one, but can't do it after the strong one. Obv. the more weighted his range is to draws, the worse my play is. I didn't realize this till now.

Appreciate your post. It was the most thought out reply so far IMO.

ama0330 · #24 06-20-2007, 11:45 AM

Given your image I 3bet more and call the shove.

The min 3bet is bad from a theoretical sense because if he was bluff-raising you with some kind of draw, you just gave him correct odds to draw to it. Thats why you should 3bet more - it has the dual benefit of forcing villain to commit to a hand by denying him correct drawing odds, preventing play on further streets, as well as getting all the money in as fast as possible.

edit: kinda echoed what was already said here, see my loc...

calmB4storm · #25 06-20-2007, 12:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

we're 40/60 vs. 66, 88, J8 and 68 alone...

[/ QUOTE ]
Damn, really?
I really need to play around with PokerStove.
I like playing for stacks, FWIW.

Emperor Norton · #26 06-20-2007, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the raise size because it applies pressure to his hand, if he just calls I can be reasonably certain he is on a draw and fold if the club comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are absolutely certain that this villain won't raise a draw, then I reluctantly approve of a small three-bet just to sucker in more money from AJ. However, it doesn't sound as though you were certain at the time that draws weren't part of his range, and you didn't include any reads that would justify that strategy. An aggression factor of 3 is (in my understanding) fairly high for someone who plays so many hands.