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  #31  
Old 08-16-2006, 01:49 PM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.

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First of all, I wouldn't be that upset about winning the hand there. If villain had KhKx, he had 11 outs, so you might have lost a huge pot.


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Do you realize how wrong you are here?

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If you pick up the pot now, you win 467. 205 of that was yours, so you gain 262.

If you each put another 450 in, there will be 1367 total. Villain has 11 outs of 44 cards left, so you are exactly a 3-1 favorite. 3/4 of 1367 is 1025, which is your expected win. You put 655 in the pot, so your expected gain is 370.

So your gain is 262 if villain folds or his cards or mucked and your expected gain is 370 if both players go allin. So you do better on average going allin, but the difference is not as much as you might think.

Villain is getting 2-1 on his money, but is a 3-1 dog, so getting the money in is advantageous, but not hugely so.

I am not saying that getting him to fold is preferable, just that it is not that bad a result.

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A difference ot 108 EV dollars (41% more) is huge. I hope you realize how wrong you are in this aspect of the situation.

I repeat that dealer was doing his job, hero is being a douche, seat 1 learned a valuable lesson on protecting his hand while being a uber-douche.

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I was just saying that the gain from getting allin is not as great as it seems. Of course you would prefer to get allin.

Dealer was not doing his job. Dealer screwed up big by mucking the hand of one of two people in a big pot. There was really no reason dealer should do this. Seat 1 also screwed up big in leaving his cards unprotected while in a huge pot.
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  #32  
Old 08-16-2006, 02:00 PM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.

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Dealer was not doing his job. Dealer screwed up big by mucking the hand of one of two people in a big pot. There was really no reason dealer should do this. Seat 1 also screwed up big in leaving his cards unprotected while in a huge pot.

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From the description of where the cards wree left there is a decent chance the dealer did nothing wrong. The muck is a large mass of cards (note if your dealer squares up the muck etc tyhey are making a mistake). It is not uncommon for a couple of cards to come free from the muck if the dealer bumps it dealing cards or whatever. When a dealer see somes cards lying there next to the muck his job is to bury them in the muck, not look around to see where they came from etc. The players that think he should look for where the cards came from are likley the same ones that will complain if the dealer doesn't deal fast enough. If you want the games to move you have to accept that dealers learn to do the same things over and over. one of the things they learn is to get cards in the muck if they are laying in the open on the table.
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  #33  
Old 08-16-2006, 02:31 PM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.

[ QUOTE ]
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Dealer was not doing his job. Dealer screwed up big by mucking the hand of one of two people in a big pot. There was really no reason dealer should do this. Seat 1 also screwed up big in leaving his cards unprotected while in a huge pot.

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From the description of where the cards wree left there is a decent chance the dealer did nothing wrong. The muck is a large mass of cards (note if your dealer squares up the muck etc tyhey are making a mistake). It is not uncommon for a couple of cards to come free from the muck if the dealer bumps it dealing cards or whatever. When a dealer see somes cards lying there next to the muck his job is to bury them in the muck, not look around to see where they came from etc. The players that think he should look for where the cards came from are likley the same ones that will complain if the dealer doesn't deal fast enough. If you want the games to move you have to accept that dealers learn to do the same things over and over. one of the things they learn is to get cards in the muck if they are laying in the open on the table.

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If seat 1 left his cards next to the muck, he is an idiot, and the problem is completely his fault. If the cards were close in front of seat 1 and the dealer swept them away when it was obvious seat 1 was involved in a major 2-way pot, then the dealer made a major error, although seat 1 is still responisible for protecting his cards.
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  #34  
Old 08-16-2006, 02:49 PM
RR RR is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
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Default Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dealer was not doing his job. Dealer screwed up big by mucking the hand of one of two people in a big pot. There was really no reason dealer should do this. Seat 1 also screwed up big in leaving his cards unprotected while in a huge pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the description of where the cards wree left there is a decent chance the dealer did nothing wrong. The muck is a large mass of cards (note if your dealer squares up the muck etc tyhey are making a mistake). It is not uncommon for a couple of cards to come free from the muck if the dealer bumps it dealing cards or whatever. When a dealer see somes cards lying there next to the muck his job is to bury them in the muck, not look around to see where they came from etc. The players that think he should look for where the cards came from are likley the same ones that will complain if the dealer doesn't deal fast enough. If you want the games to move you have to accept that dealers learn to do the same things over and over. one of the things they learn is to get cards in the muck if they are laying in the open on the table.

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If seat 1 left his cards next to the muck, he is an idiot, and the problem is completely his fault. If the cards were close in front of seat 1 and the dealer swept them away when it was obvious seat 1 was involved in a major 2-way pot, then the dealer made a major error, although seat 1 is still responisible for protecting his cards.

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This is corect. I thought I read somewhere in this thread that the player put his cards to his right. He very well could have put them next to the muck.
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  #35  
Old 08-16-2006, 03:04 PM
tourney guy tourney guy is offline
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Default Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.

I don't agree. In a heads up pot, the dealer has to pay more than careful attention to the players' hands.

Heads up, 1 and 10 seats should never have hands mucked.
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  #36  
Old 08-16-2006, 06:05 PM
lowpockets lowpockets is offline
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Default Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.

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hero is being a douche,

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Um, not sure where you came to that conclusion. I offered to give the guy in 1 seat his money back - which the floor confirmed would happen anyway.

I also thought I made it pretty clear that the player in the 1 seat didn't throw his cards away. He had them close enough in from of him that the dealer shouldn't have grabbed them (the dealer is the only one at the table that was clueless about this action). Of course a player has an obligation to protect their cards. But I think the point I have been trying to make is that the dealer made mistakes before this in his rotation and was being pushy.

The Borgata >>>>>>>>>> Caesers.

Also - to the guy asking about the Foxwoods comp: The regular at the table knew the floor pretty well and we were already short handed paying half-time. The dealer was a newbie in the middle of the night and made some goofy mistake and the regular guy talked the floor into the comp. I think this is the difference between a larger room that didn't need 3 bucks from 5 guys and a small room that needed 6 bucks from 10 guys.
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  #37  
Old 08-16-2006, 07:17 PM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.

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I don't agree. In a heads up pot, the dealer has to pay more than careful attention to the players' hands.

Heads up, 1 and 10 seats should never have hands mucked.

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It looks like a pretty bad mistake by the dealer. Also, as has been implied, this is kind of a new poker room, and the casino doesn't emphasize poker. It is a good place for soft low limit games. I think something like that would be less likely to happen at one of the big three poker rooms in AC.
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