Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw - Page 3

aislephive · #21 10-25-2007, 03:48 PM

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

AcTiOnJaCsOn · #22 10-25-2007, 06:47 PM

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

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wtf, the diamonds increase our equity tremendously, c/c seems kinda bad here, probably bet call or c/r all in

Requin · #23 10-25-2007, 06:50 PM

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

[/ QUOTE ]No because 1. we can't be pushed off our hand and 2. if villain has a draw it's likely very live (our NFD doesn't cover it). Not saying that c/c doesn't have merit here, but it's not your typical 'I flopped a mediocre showdownable hand and the NFD so c/c all the way'

Eagles · #24 10-26-2007, 12:00 AM

K I was villain in this hand. The guy crai with Atdd I insta called with AJ and busted him. I think crai here is the worst line other than folding. Almost all better hands call and almost worse hands fold... crai is pretty bad here IMO.

mastr · #25 10-26-2007, 05:36 AM

btw I knew it was switched cuz you called villain a pretty solid player [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ZJ123 · #26 10-26-2007, 06:03 AM

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K I was villain in this hand. The guy crai with Atdd I insta called with AJ and busted him. I think crai here is the worst line other than folding. Almost all better hands call and almost worse hands fold... crai is pretty bad here IMO.

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This is BvB i think most Aces are calling here. I think c/r allin is fine.

stealthmunk · #27 10-26-2007, 06:43 AM

I hate when people say "tough spot" when they have the virtual nuts and its just a question of how to get the most value.

THIS ISN'T A TOUGH SPOT. c/r, c/c, b/c are all probably similar EV/opponent dependent. Just don't fold, profit.

aislephive · #28 10-26-2007, 06:58 AM

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

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wtf, the diamonds increase our equity tremendously, c/c seems kinda bad here, probably bet call or c/r all in

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Right, it improved our hand equity vs his entire range, but being raised on the turn sucks. We'd probably have to call but we're usually behind. On the other hand, giving a free card with ATdd isn't bad either, not many cards hurt us. With an offsuit AT, this isn't the case, a lot of cards really suck on the turn, and a free card is pretty deadly, so we need to bet for value and also protection. We're ahead and behind the same hands with ATdd as we are ATo, the difference is the latter is much more vulnerable.

eurythmech · #29 10-26-2007, 08:26 AM

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I hate when people say "tough spot" when they have the virtual nuts and its just a question of how to get the most value.

THIS ISN'T A TOUGH SPOT. c/r, c/c, b/c are all probably similar EV/opponent dependent. Just don't fold, profit.

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Ummm...lost winnings hurt just as bad as actual losses?
Well, kinda.

AcTiOnJaCsOn · #30 10-26-2007, 11:53 AM

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

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wtf, the diamonds increase our equity tremendously, c/c seems kinda bad here, probably bet call or c/r all in

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Right, it improved our hand equity vs his entire range, but being raised on the turn sucks. We'd probably have to call but we're usually behind. On the other hand, giving a free card with ATdd isn't bad either, not many cards hurt us. With an offsuit AT, this isn't the case, a lot of cards really suck on the turn, and a free card is pretty deadly, so we need to bet for value and also protection. We're ahead and behind the same hands with ATdd as we are ATo, the difference is the latter is much more vulnerable.

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i agree with some of this however be4 u were saying that you said that u were bet calling with the aces ten without a diamond and c/c with diamonds. Maybe this spot is one where its good to c/c with diamonds, but definitely if we have no diamonds it seems like a bet fold to me for the same reason why people who advocated c/c with diamonds in the first place, which is that no worse hands usually are rasising all in on the turn and ur equity is bad when ur all in. Stealthmunk was right earlier that its hard to make a mistake here, and i agree with this. I think c/c is best vrs a passive straightforwardish player who isnt capable of multi steeet bluffs, then ud fold to a river bet when u blank. But i think people who are against c/r all in are overlooking a few things. 1. this is better than a bet call since blind vrs blind its definitely possible that hes floating so we maximize our value vrs air. 2. based on ur history and him knowing u know hes agressive he def could liekly get all in with worse in this spot ( most people in cash know that to protect there floats they have to bet call a lot of worse aces in this spot). 3. if we c/c vrs an agressive opponent we are at his mercy out of position on the river and our hand is face up against a good player, which is a bad situation 4. if we c/c and a diamond hits we might not get payed off. I think if the stacks are deeper that c/c makes a lot more sense since theres more merit in keeping lower draws in, and not building a pot. blind on blind though and shallowish stacks (compared to cash) makes this a c/r all in.