22$ *s NL(t)TRN : Am I getting leveled by a uNL HU donk...

[hra146]

... or is this guy just full of it?

He had taken away a lot of pots from me previously. Calling my cbets, betting the river; min3betting pf, following up, donking out etc.

I guess at higher stakes this line isnt too rare, but I swear its the first time ive seen it in about 400 matches.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Hero (t1310)
BB (t1690)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, BB calls t40.

Flop: (t120) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t320) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t200</font>, Hero calls t200.

River: (t720) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t1330 (All-In)</font>, Hero ???


looks like what I do when I flopped a monster vs. a huge station (who I know couldnt let go of an ace anyway). However, if hes a thinking player he cant possibly think Im a station. UNLESS he thinks that Im pissed off about him taking all the pots from me (then again, its not like I hadnt won a single one)


So...?

[recondite7]

Donks thru very good players all have something here enough of the time to make this a clear river fold without a spot on read

[hra146]

its the flop line that irritates me the most. He knows I cbet close to 100% and the flop is as dry as it gets...

idk, I guess Im overthinking.

[recondite7]

He could be awful and just way to aggressive, but although his line doesn't make a ton of sense to me i've seen many people do this crap with flopped two pair, a set played way too fast, or even AK. Don't get me wrong the decision is close because the line is suspect, but I still can't call this with AT, AK maybe.

[hra146]

[ QUOTE ]
He could be awful and just way to aggressive, but although his line doesn't make a ton of sense to me i've seen many people do this crap with flopped two pair, a set played way too fast, or even AK. Don't get me wrong the decision is close because the line is suspect, but I still can't call this with AT, AK maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

no I get your point. The first thread title I had in mind was "I cant ever call this, right?".

so yeah... thx for input.

[TNixon]

His line makes perfect sense to me with 2 pair or better, if you can assume he is a thinking player. If you played on FT, I'd say that assumption is way out of line to begin with at the $22 level, but you've made a good case for smart average villans on stars in the past, so I'll go with that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I frequently bet a flopped 2 pair or a set just like villan has here, simply because it does look weaker than a check/call or a check/raise, and I'm more likely to get paid off by a lone ace, or even something like J9.

Reasoning: On this flop, you either have a piece or you have nothing. If you have nothing, all I'm going to get is your continuation bet, maybe 80 chips? If you have a piece, by betting out, my hand looks weaker than it is, especially since I'm also going to bet most single pairs on this flop, trying to take the pot down right there, as well as trying to determine if my hand is good at all. So if you have a piece, I get a good start towards building a pot by making a bet that is going to look like a weak hand or even an attempt to buy the pot to a lot of players.

And given the choice between picking off an 80 chip continuation, or building a pot against somebody who has a piece and is likely to pay off at least one more bet on the turn or river (or both!), I'm going to go for pot-building almost every time. If I've flopped 2 pair or a set on this dry board, I want to give myself every possible opportunity for taking a big pot, and checking is not the way to do that except against superdonkaggro players who will three-barrel with air frequently. And quite frankly, you don't sound like one of those players. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Of course, against most people, I generally expect to get called on the river by most aces, as well.

[TNixon]

Now that I've made a case for folding, given that this line can very easily be a set, A9, or A4 suited, I will say that against the typical opponent I play against, if they've been excessively aggressive and betting me out of tons of pots, I'm probably going to call, and expect to be shown a lot of desperation river bets with weaker aces and even some 9s or complete air, along with the sets and two pairs.

But whether our average opponent is significantly different or not, I clearly call big bets on the end far more often than you do, which means I end up being wrong (and right) a lot more often. And I've already learned once in a very painful manner that it can be very dangerous to try to apply bits of advice from somebody who plays very differently. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[xSCWx]

I don't think you kicker really matters here. This is pretty much 2pr+ or a bluff, but against the described villain I think this is a bluff more than not. These types of players seem to have "take every pot" syndrome and end up digging their own grave when they aren't raised.

[TNixon]

[ QUOTE ]
but against the described villain I think this is a bluff more than not

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree completely with this statement, as long as you're including most random aces, 9s, and mid-pockets as "bluffs", whether the player in question realizes they're bluffing or not.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]