Is there ever a reason to over-bet?

[Sponger.]

Some of the situations people give for overbetting in this thread really suck.

[Your Mom]

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Some of the situations people give for overbetting in this thread really suck.

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such as.....?

[Cornell Fiji]

Here is a post I made on the overbet from a while back.

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/show...part=1&vc=1

It is when I first discovered the value of this great play.

I think this is a very helpful thread but then again I am biased because it was my creation

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Last night was my 3rd time playing in an NYC cardroom (the first two times being two nights and four nights ago.) On my first two visits to the card room I descovered that the level of play was quite poor and extremely loose-agressive and that the players were quite capable of making huge calls but few seemed able to make a big laydown.

Before this session I decided that when the situation was right I would exploit this tendency by grossly overbetting the pot when I held a monster. Big bets are given NO respect in this game and often an all-in will be called more often than a $150 river bet. The players are Mike Caro to the extreme and if you can appear 'strong' enough when making a big bet they will just know that you are bluffing.

I have been playing for an hour an a half and my $500 stack has gone up to $900 and back down to $600 after a moderately bad beat when this hand came up and gave me a perfect opportunity to utilize the overbet.

3 limpers to me on the button with 6c 9c I raise to $30. To my dismay BB (~$1000) makes it $75 to go (he has AK, AQs, or TT-AA) all fold and I call hoping to crack his monster (and because I am fairly aggressive and I don't want people to start playing back at me, besides the big lick is my lucky hand)

Flop ($190) 5c 7s Jc
BB bets $50 I call

Turn ($290) Ac
BB checks, I decide this is the perfect opportunity to overbet the pot. My rationale is that if he has KK/QQ then a bet of $150 will induce a fold at least 3/4 of the time because he will fear a followup bet on the river. however, he might see weakness in my overbet and call, also he might try to catch me on a bluff with as little as TT (ive seen calls with less in this game)...

I go 'all-in' for $475.
BB says (ver batum) 'I was worried about that club but you wouldn't have gone all in with the flush. I think you're bluffing, I have an ace, I call' and flips up AK. MHIG

He reacted perfectly to my play. And when he said those words, explaining the exact thought process I was trying to induce, it was simply beautiful.

THREE more times in this session I was called with a gross overbet when I held a monster (One time was set over set where all the money was going in anyway.) What THIS did was set up certain players to be bluffed later on. At the table we usually had only two or three people who were paying attention to the other players in the game (these people were easily recognized by the fact that they held $1250+ on the table for a few hours where the others lost money whenever they won a big pot by making a 'great call') I knew that these bigger stacks were paying attention to the fact that I overbet my monsters and this allowed me to overbet them on bluffs, gaining me a lot of money when they made 'big laydowns' (and often showed me their 2 pair etc.)

This is a new strategy for me and in this cardroom it works to perfection, it is obviously important to know your opponents and know which ones pride themselves on making 'big calls' and which ones 'big laydowns' but with a solid knowledge of my opponents this play can be extreamly effective.

...

Later in the night my game has broken and after a short dinner break I was sitting at a new table with ~$850.

This table was very similar to the first as people were making rediculous bluffs and even more insane calls.

The following hand came up at this new table.

I (~$850) am on the BB with 2d 2h .
Button (~700) calls ($5) SB (~$3000) checks, I make it $25, both call.

3 see the flop ($75)
As Td 2c

SB checks, I bet $50, Button calls, SB calls

Turn ($225) 6d
SB checks, I bet $75, Button calls, SB calls

River ($450) 2s
SB checks, I bet $600 all-in, button folds, SB goes into the tank and says 'this sure smells like KK to me' I just dont think you have that ace, I have an ace (he flashes A6,) He thought for 5 full minutes (this is a time pot game!) and mucks.

Now I could have most likely gotten $100 out of his TPNK (~80% of the time) but if I bet $175-300 he is out like a light. The beatuty of this play is that I had him thinking about a call with A6 and I gaurantee that he makes this call AT LEAST 1/3 of the time because he just senses weakness in the overbet.

After the session I told a friend of mine who was watching that I had quads on that hand (he knew I had a monster because I had told him about the overbet strategy) and he asked why I wouldnt just bet $150 there. Obviously if I think that he will call the overbet 1/3 of the time this play is much more +EV than a smaller raise and thus is a significantly better play.

Does anyone else consistently overbet their monsters in games with similar players as this one (obviously such a play is less effective if youre a regular?)

Obviously this is something that I should have been doing for a long time and it is tough to think about all of the money that I have lost making simple 'value bets' but thats why I am constantly trying to learn and improve my game, plays like this one that I would not make before reading everyone go nuts about Spirit Rock is a move that I am quickly falling in love with.



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[johnnyblaze]

When Doyle Brunson was heads up with stew Unger in the WSOP
Doyle Brunson flopped 2 pair and Stu flopped a gutshot in an unraised pot. Doyle bet out about 3/4 of the pot. Stu Unger knew that doyle had a strong hand and if he hit his 4 outer on the turn the tournament was over, so he called. B The turn was the card he needed and he busted Doyle to win the championship that year. Doyle later gave a lecture about how he made a mistake giving Stu the implied odds to call the bet and that the only way he could have won the hand that knocked him out was to overbet the pot.

[Sponger.]

[ QUOTE ]
When Doyle Brunson was heads up with stew Unger in the WSOP
Doyle Brunson flopped 2 pair and Stu flopped a gutshot in an unraised pot. Doyle bet out about 3/4 of the pot. Stu Unger knew that doyle had a strong hand and if he hit his 4 outer on the turn the tournament was over, so he called. B The turn was the card he needed and he busted Doyle to win the championship that year. Doyle later gave a lecture about how he made a mistake giving Stu the implied odds to call the bet and that the only way he could have won the hand that knocked him out was to overbet the pot.

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1. i don't know how he could have read him for a big hand
2. he probably would have had implied odds even if he bet full pot because the pot was so small

either way this whole thing sounds stupid.

[johnnyblaze]

1. i don't know how he could have read him for a big hand
2. he probably would have had implied odds even if he bet full pot because the pot was so small

either way this whole thing sounds stupid.

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1.he is stu unger he is good at reading oppenents. Have you ever read someone for a strong hand and been correct? No?

2. No a potsized bet would still give him implied odds. An oversized bet would not