Stud - style of play - discussion

[Praxising]

Being 57 years old and never having successfully balanced a checkbook, I managed to be a moderately successful Hold 'em player by memorizing some percentages and playing just on instinct, for the most part.

Then I started playing stud games. Now I'm reading Sklansky's SoP, I found this sentence beginning one chapter:

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"Why is it that so many percentage players seem to only eke out a living, while many of the most successful players are relatively weak on probability?" (Sklansky on Poker pg 48)

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He goes on to say that the "instinctive" players can outperform purely percentage players because percentages are mostly important to before draw play and psychology, logic and maybe game theory more important after. Before the draw play mistakes are least important. My impression from reading the chapter is that this is most obvious in Stud limit games.

I'm never going to be "one of the most successful" players, but this gave me hope that I can get good enough to play at mid-level. I was wondering what the experience is, or the opinions are, of those who play the various stud games.

Do you play strict percentage poker? Do you think Sklansky is correct here about instinctive players having an advantage from 4th onward? Do you think percentages become less important as you progress through a 7 card hand?

[chucky]

I dont think there is any contradiction between percentage and instinctual play. The type of player you are facing changes the percentages of what his hand holds. The larger argument is that if you are facing good players, making plays beyond the percentages makes possible to cause them to play suboptimally.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think there is any contradiction between percentage and instinctual play. The type of player you are facing changes the percentages of what his hand holds.

[/ QUOTE ] OK, I get that. But it doesn't change what you hold and your potential to fill a straight. So, you are defining yourself as not a strict percentage player. You are using both instinct ( his word not mine here) and percentage. [ QUOTE ]
The larger argument is that if you are facing good players, making plays beyond the percentages makes possible to cause them to play suboptimally.

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Is this because they are likely to be percentage players and will mis-read your hand by a non-standard play?

[chucky]

When I have drawing hands like straights and flushes I use the outs/pot odds as guidelines. It is more in playing single pair and two pair hands that knowledge of your opponent matters. I have played against opponents who wont bet with less than 2 pair and others that just fire away with a low pair until they hit resistance. If you see that your 2 pair outs are limited against the former, then folding may be in order, while against the latter you hold on for dear life even with mediocre one pairs.

Yes. profit is conserved in limit poker by knowing how to fold. Therefore good players can be taken advantage of if you occasionally bluff the flush on 5th or 6th, as long as you play your flush bluff very similar to your flush they will be stuck guessing. The worse an opponent is the more one should play textbook poker against them.

[sk8ram]

I think the previous post summed this up nicely.

At lower limits, playing very much textbook and pure odds based / value betting will see you as a solid regular winner.

As you move up, using more knowledge based on reads and instincts is a requirement, and this also passes over to short handed and especially heads-up games.

However, you generally only gain good instincts about stud by playing and winning at it a lot, which has a sound theoretical background as a prerequisite.

So I don't think the big winners lack the probabilities and odds they needed at lower limits, but have simply developed and evolved to play a higher limit where instincts become greater in importance.

[Poker CPA]

Pra

"I managed to be a moderately successful Hold 'em player by memorizing some percentages and playing just on instinct, for the most part."

Memorizing some percentages? Could you explain some Hold'em examples. Thanks

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
However, you generally only gain good instincts about stud by playing and winning at it a lot, which has a sound theoretical background as a prerequisite.

So I don't think the big winners lack the probabilities and odds they needed at lower limits, but have simply developed and evolved to play a higher limit where instincts become greater in importance.

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This is a very important point. Playing an winning instinctive game requires that you play by the percentages in most cases even if you don't "know" them or calculate them out in your head. For example, if you play a medium pair with a gutshot draw on 5th st enough times vs. enough opponents with enough types of boards you can instinctively put the villain(s) on a hand and decide your best action based on how likely you are to be ahead, how likely to draw out, how likely to make them fold etc. It takes a ton of experience to get it right however, and knowing the math is a terrific shortcut.

[Wahoo73]

SG, chucky and sk8-

I think all three of you make excellent points.

Let me also add that it has been my observation that "percentage" stud players do well in cash games but not well in stud tournaments. OTOH, the most successful stud tournament players I know may be familiar with the percentages, but tend to be heavily "instinctive."

[Phanekim]

This is true because in a cash game you should have a ton of BB to cover most bets.

In a tournament, given the blind structure the way they are and several streets of betting, knowing when to fold and conserving extra bets here and there is absolutely CRUCIAL.

[Phanekim]

[ QUOTE ]
When I have drawing hands like straights and flushes I use the outs/pot odds as guidelines. It is more in playing single pair and two pair hands that knowledge of your opponent matters. I have played against opponents who wont bet with less than 2 pair and others that just fire away with a low pair until they hit resistance. If you see that your 2 pair outs are limited against the former, then folding may be in order, while against the latter you hold on for dear life even with mediocre one pairs.

Yes. profit is conserved in limit poker by knowing how to fold. Therefore good players can be taken advantage of if you occasionally bluff the flush on 5th or 6th, as long as you play your flush bluff very similar to your flush they will be stuck guessing. The worse an opponent is the more one should play textbook poker against them.

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Last stud cash game hand I ever played was against this newb. I had 4 diamonds on my board showing to him, and had been betting the entire way. He calls me down with ace high. Turns out it was good.