Did I win or does it even matter?

JoseyWales · #1 10-11-2006, 01:59 PM

Before I post this hand I have to say that I was tilting badly at the time. On the flop my mind was going something like "WHY WHY WHY I finally flop top pair and the board is ugly as... Damn I'm tilting, I have to stop playing right now". Anyway, I have been thinking about this hand for a while and I have to say that honestly I have no idea how I would have played this hand even if I were in full mental heath and accidentally called PF. Let's see the hand.

Reads (I didn't have even this many hands at that time and I sure wasn't looking at their stats):
- Main villain: 60/1/0.6 (94 hands)
- PF raiser: 28/26/2.7 (57 hands)

PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

To keep the discussion flowing you don't have to say: fold PF. I think that's the obvious choise. Of course if someone can think a reason why to call PF let's hear it. After all we have the position and PF raiser seems maniacish. But let's assume we made a weak call PF and focus on postflop.

Can we continue on flop? I think we are basically on draw, we have gut-shot and one back door is fully open. Could our pair be good? I really wanna call this.

Oh, but the turn is ugly. Can we beat anything that villain might have even if hit that straight?

The miracle river comes [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Is this a place for value raise or are we once again throwing money at the villain?

What do you think?

PS. Oh my god, I'm previewing my post and just notice that I 3-bet the flop. Oh this is beatiful, I have no fear. Maybe I should have some. I was tilting more badly than I realized.

Bruce D · #2 10-11-2006, 03:27 PM

Fold the flop. The sb bet into the preflop raiser and then the raiser has told him to go screw himself. There are 13 bets in the middle. Its 2 to you, and you don't know that it won't be another two when it gets back around. So if it doesn't get reraised and capped, its 14:2 for your money. You absolutely need a J here. If you notice, the villian has a 1 percent pfr %. That means AA. Therefore he limps with all other hands. He has a strong holding limping and betting into the preflop raiser. AK, AQ, AJ, KK, QQ. He isn't afraid and that is disconcerting. He could already have a straight in which case you have only 3 outs.

If it gets capped you are paying 4:18, or getting 4.5:1. Previously you were getting 7:1 at best. You are drawing thin to a J which you may have 4 outs at best. You need 10.8:1. It's too thin. Fold.

The sb bet on the turn screams I have a really good hand. Villian is passive. When he bets into an open field he wants your money and is VERY certain he is going to get it.

You now have odds to draw to your J, but.. the board is now flush coordinated. A J of spades could be garbage. That coupled with you could be drawing dead. So you have 4 outs, one of them could be tainted and another could already be in sb hand. So that gives you 2.5 outs at best. Its still a fold.

Your raise on the river is dangerous. You could be already dead to a FH. I suspect the villian has at least a straight at this point and he isn't folding it, and you aren't adding any value. I call this river, thank my lucky stars if it holds and turn off my computer when the blinds come around.

bozlax · #3 10-11-2006, 04:05 PM

Posting blind: it doesn't matter.

Having looked at the hand: playing ATs preflop against a guy that pfr's 26% of his hands, and basically anything he comes into a pot with, is fine, with a) position, b) the limper in front of him, and c) the blinds behind you. (Depending on your reads of the limper and the blinds, and with a stronger read on MP1, you could even get away with 3-betting.)

The next 3 streets, however, are hideous. If I had to guess I'd say you were drawing dead to AQ from the jump.

Sushiglutton · #4 10-11-2006, 04:13 PM

Fold pf, fold flop, fold turn, river is ok.

TexInAtl · #5 10-11-2006, 04:31 PM

Personally, I think that if you're going to play this against the PF raiser, I would 3-bet PF. I think you'd want this HU, and with his PFR%, I don't think that would be a bad thing. I think the hand plays much differently if you 3-bet PF.

ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S · #6 10-11-2006, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pf, fold flop, fold turn, river is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with this except for the river.

just call it

Point Blank · #7 10-11-2006, 08:12 PM

grunch

I don't think PF is too bad ... MP1 is a big raiser and you have someone already in and you have the button (this is better if the blinds are loose) ... I think you might be able to make a case to 3bet here (if you can get it heads up)

post flop ... on the flop I would probably fold after MP1` raises (a call is very slim) ... on the turn this is a must fold (your straight outs are worthless)

euphuistical · #8 10-11-2006, 10:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. The sb bet into the preflop raiser and then the raiser has told him to go screw himself. There are 13 bets in the middle. Its 2 to you, and you don't know that it won't be another two when it gets back around. So if it doesn't get reraised and capped, its 14:2 for your money. You absolutely need a J here. If you notice, the villian has a 1 percent pfr %. That means AA. Therefore he limps with all other hands. He has a strong holding limping and betting into the preflop raiser. AK, AQ, AJ, KK, QQ. He isn't afraid and that is disconcerting. He could already have a straight in which case you have only 3 outs.

If it gets capped you are paying 4:18, or getting 4.5:1. Previously you were getting 7:1 at best. You are drawing thin to a J which you may have 4 outs at best. You need 10.8:1. It's too thin. Fold.

The sb bet on the turn screams I have a really good hand. Villian is passive. When he bets into an open field he wants your money and is VERY certain he is going to get it.

You now have odds to draw to your J, but.. the board is now flush coordinated. A J of spades could be garbage. That coupled with you could be drawing dead. So you have 4 outs, one of them could be tainted and another could already be in sb hand. So that gives you 2.5 outs at best. Its still a fold.

Your raise on the river is dangerous. You could be already dead to a FH. I suspect the villian has at least a straight at this point and he isn't folding it, and you aren't adding any value. I call this river, thank my lucky stars if it holds and turn off my computer when the blinds come around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has a BDFD which gives him a few more outs. I am not sure if it changes it to a call, something to consider.

shimoda · #9 10-12-2006, 03:23 AM

After the flop I would have played it the same. You have (just about) odds to draw yr gutshot. And you have a beautiful top pair as backup. GO!

kiemo · #10 10-12-2006, 02:47 PM

3-bet preflop as original raiser raises a whole lot of hands here as isolation plays.

Hand changes alot then.

As you played fold flop