Hand from Borgata WPT

[WarDekar]

[ QUOTE ]
I will guess the key is:

1) He waited 3 seconds after betting to say "call" (long enough to make it clearly a raise)(if someone is going to say call they rarely wait 3 seconds). And

2) He didn't start restating that he meant to call until the floor person was called over (knowing that by then it would definitely be ruled a raise). And,


I think he is angle shooting with AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the 3 seconds is important too because if he says "Call" while throwing out 6k, the verbal action is binding, so it's entirely relevant that he would wait until well after the chips are put in to say "Call" - so that it can instead be ruled a raise.

I think this increases the chances of him angle-shooting you significantly.

[DeSaganaDiop]

since the armenian guy puts too much value in his reads, and he debates for a while whether or not to raise, I would guess that the read he picked up on the BB is that the BB is weak. it could very well be that he chose not to raise based on your presence in the hand, and not the BB's. that suggests to me--especially when coupled with your description of the BB as a typically tight, decent, yet somewhat noobish live player--that the BB is probably weakish. That being said, I would raise him to maybe ~15k, see what I am in the hand, and reevaluate from there. But I think more likely you're way ahead.

[locutus2002]

Call; he has ak (possibly spades)

In general I think its unlikely that this player is an angleshooter, given ur read. Most likely he is fairly inexperienced and is trying to figure alot of things out as he goes.

I'd also discount angleshooting because of his turn c/r; an angleshooter would be more smooth and toss a 5K chip out and meekly say raise; and then assert that he had wanted to call. The selection of two chips is a clear indication that at the time he wanted to raise.

So if he's not an angleshooter then I'd interpret the weak vocalization PF as an indication that he knew he should raise the hand but wasn't entirely comfortable with it. I'd put his range at this point (JJ++;AK) with emphasis towards the lower end of the range. I think all lesser hands check this deep OOP from this player.

This deep I'd expect the player to bet the flop and the turn w/ aa,kk and give up on the hand w/ qq,jj. If he indeeed checked the flop (prob aa only); then I'd expect him to lead the turn. I'd interpret his reluctance to raise after the turn c/r as a realization that he will be faced with a difficult decision if a spade or a 4-straight comes on the river.

If a blank comes on the river, I'd expect him to block and call a small reraise; If a danger card comes on the river then I'd expect him to c/call a small bet.

of course I'm frequently wrong.

FWIW : I would hav bet the flop if I were u.

[ZeeJustin]

No one has gotten it yet. People are focusing too much on how I wrote this. I tried to write this the same way that I told the hand to Thor, Alan and others before I knew they key myself.

Remember, it requires deduction. It's not just simply picking out one of the sentences I wrote and putting all your stock into it.

[GTL]

this reminds me of watching "The Godfather" with my dad.

Dad - "so what's the key?"

ME - "I don't know, but he just blasted those two guys, it was pretty awesome."

Dad - "let me rewind it, and you can figure it out. you have to pay attention though. what is the key?"

Me - "just tell me what the key is so I can watch the rest of the movie."

[NoahSD]

[ QUOTE ]

It would seem as if, were the intentions that he angle shoot you, that his angle shoot be premeditated and he make his raise more congruent or better timed with his action, ie throwing this chips out while saying "call".


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... read adanthar's post, wondered why I didn't think it seemed like an angle shot at all, reread ZJ's, and came to this conclusion.

[NoahSD]

Just say whatever you think is so relevant.

[benlj21]

2 things:
1. Our hand is very underrepresented. We checked the flop and took a stab at the turn. BB has no reason to think we have a hand nearly as strong as a set; it's probably more likely in fact that we have a draw.
2. I think it's quite possible that BB is trying to angleshoot UTG into putting money into the pot, rather than us, if he thinks we're good/smart. He might think UTG has a better chance of having a hand he can call with than we do.

I still don't really think we should call, but maybe this is the explanation you're looking for? Oh yeah and I just don't think he's good enough to check the flop with AK, though it's a good play IMO.

[Clayton]

[ QUOTE ]


Remember, it requires deduction. It's not just simply picking out one of the sentences I wrote and putting all your stock into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

colonel mustard w/ the candlestick. ship the money son!

[mwalsh2020]

ive only read the first few responses so i apologize if someone has already said this but i think you are ahead and should capitalize by calling and not raising, although i suppose it is possible for him to think that you are pouncing on his accidental raise.

the reason i think that you are ahead is because when he threw out the 6k raise he waiting three seconds. you are seen as an aggressive player and he could have felt that with his pfr and position that he would be able to put a lot of pressure on you and fold many hands that you'd lead the turn with, especially with his straightforward image.

The key however, is that in the THREE SECONDS he waited (that is a long time) he would have easily been able to see that the Armenian guy did not fold which is in itself a fairly large display of strength due to the size of the raise. At this point he becomes scared because the Armenian, who the BB was previously not worried about is now considering playing a big pot with him. The BB then decides to try and save chips in the event that the Armenian comes over the top with a big raise.

When the floor comes over he tries to state that he only meant to call but does it in a calm way because he wants to appear calm and not upset. This guy probably thinks on a level below most of us, based on the description. He thinks that if he were to act upset/mad that it would be interpreted as weakness by the other players (they will know that I'm mad that I am risking 6k in chips on a bad hand) instead of what some other posters have suggested which is that he thinks that acting mad will give away the strength of his hand. I think this is key. He ultimately decides that he will appear calm and confident, perhaps mimicking a hand that intended to slowplay and only wanted to call but that is not THAT upset, cause hey I don't want people drawing out on my AA or whatever with a straight.

The interesting thing is that his hand can't really be a bluff unless like I said originally he decided to run a COMPLETE bluff on you in a multiway pot and then abandoned ship after three seconds. Thus, I think it is likely, given your description that he feels he has some value against your range but is very uncomfortable about UTG playing against a 6k raise. If he had a STONE bluff I think it's likely he keeps the 6k raise out there to try and fold out a lot of the UTG's range.

A lot of what I wrote may be incoherent, but I look forward to hearing more about this mental exercise.