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Old 11-26-2007, 07:59 PM
AlanBostick AlanBostick is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: California
Posts: 797
Default Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

I am conducting a serious review of my results in stud/8 using Poker Tracker. I have 46,000 hands under my belt -- I wish I had more, but this is enough for a start.

One of the things that has surprised me right away is how poorly baby straight-flush starters have performed for me. Ray Zee compares them to rolled-up trips in terms of their strength; and yet roll-ups are returning me an order of magnitude more in big bets per hand. Roll-ups of all ranks yield 2.23 BB/hand on average, whereas baby straight flush starters with no gaps yield 0.60 BB/hand.

I've been treating straight-flush hands like the Holy Grail, jamming with them on third street and playing them fast on later streets. It would seem that, while small straight flush starters can win some big pots, they often win or split small ones, and in addition, because I have been playing them so strongly, I have to peel when I catch bad, and the pot gets big enough that I have to call down with mediocre finishers. I wind up losing significant amounts in the hands that I lose. Straight flush starters tempt me into violating stud/8's cardinal rule: get away from your hand when you catch bad.

Ray Zee says in his book that straight and flush starters like to see multiway pots for cheap, because of their significant implied odds when a couple of hands get there on the later streets and the betting gets jammed. I have been playing straight flush hands like they are the holy grail, front-loading the pot, tying me to it. Maybe I should be a lot less aggressive with these hands.

I notice that my results with suited baby one-gappers are better than with no-gappers, perhaps because I am less in love with them. I haven't gone over my data on two-gappers yet.

Ray Zee writes that the real strength of strong two-way starters like these are the implied odds on the later streets when they hit something strong and can jam. Implied odds hands are hands that want to start out for cheap. And when you start out for cheap, it is easier to give it up when you catch bad. In practice I have been doing exactly the opposite: Playing these hands hard early, winning a bunch of small pots, losing some big ones, and not scooping enough to make up for the losses more than a bit.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:02 PM
AlanBostick AlanBostick is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: California
Posts: 797
Default Re: Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

Here are a bunch of hand histories. I am only somewhat interested in comments on my line of play on individual play on the level of "I would have checked instead of betting here." I am doubting my overall philosophy of hands like these.


Hand 1
Seat 1 is a solid opponent who plays aggressively and well. Seat 8 has decent stats, but otherwise I have no read.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1

(converter)

3rd Street - (1.33 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes___raises to $8.50 (all-in)
Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___raises___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls___calls

4th Street - (12.83 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___all-in
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (7.42 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___all-in
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (9.42 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___all-in
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (11.42 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___all-in
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (11.42 BB - $68.50)


Hand 2
This hand, I jammed until my hand got into trouble -- at which point the pot was big enough that I felt I had keep peeling until my hand was hopeless. Seat seven was one of the biggest losers on UB, back when UB's games were still good. Seat two has half a clue about stud/8 but is a few hairs too loose.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1

(converter)

3rd Street

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings in___re-raises
seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises

4th Street

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

6th Street

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River

seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets
seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks


Hand 3
This hand, the villains are both loose, playing waaaay too many hands.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.40, Bring-In $0.50

(converter)

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (4.45 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (3.73 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (8.73 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (10.73 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (12.73 BB - $50.90)


Hand 4
Villain is extremely tight (VP$IP of 18%) and aggressive.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.40, Bring-In $0.50

(converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___raises
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (5.00 SB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.50 BB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (5.50 BB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

River - (7.50 BB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___raises

Total pot: (11.50 BB - $46)


Hand 5
An apparent no-brainer illustrates the amazing ability of straight flush starters to win small pots. Both villains are reasonably aggressive but a bit too loose.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1

(converter)

3rd Street - (0.75 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

4th Street - (3.75 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (3.75 SB)


Hand 6
Here's another spectacular miss. Seat 1 is a typical hair-too-loose player. Seats four and eight are extremely loose and make up for it with aggression. I have no read on seat 5. Seat six is a reasonably good player. Seat seven is David Chiu, inexplicably bad at stud/8, who throws a lot of parties at Full Tilt's mid-limits.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($8/$16), Ante $1.50, Bring-In $2

(converter)

3rd Street - (1.31 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes___calls

4th Street - (13.56 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___raises___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls___calls

5th Street - (16.78 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls $11.50 (all-in)
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises

6th Street - (26.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___all-in
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (30.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___folds
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___all-in
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (32.50 BB - $520)
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2007, 09:45 PM
Phat Mack Phat Mack is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: People\'s Republic of Texas
Posts: 2,663
Default Re: Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

[ QUOTE ]
I've been treating straight-flush hands like the Holy Grail, jamming with them on third street and playing them fast on later streets. It would seem that, while small straight flush starters can win some big pots, they often win or split small ones, and in addition, because I have been playing them so strongly, I have to peel when I catch bad, and the pot gets big enough that I have to call down with mediocre finishers. I wind up losing significant amounts in the hands that I lose. Straight flush starters tempt me into violating stud/8's cardinal rule: get away from your hand when you catch bad.

Ray Zee says in his book that straight and flush starters like to see multiway pots for cheap, because of their significant implied odds when a couple of hands get there on the later streets and the betting gets jammed. I have been playing straight flush hands like they are the holy grail, front-loading the pot, tying me to it. Maybe I should be a lot less aggressive with these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to re-sate the obvious:

Rolled trips are made hands; 3-card straight flushes are draws.

It's also harder to have dead cards when you're rolled up.

At first I thought this might be a dead-card issue, but from the hands you posted, the number of dead cards seems to vary greatly. So now I think it must be a matter of expectation; baby SFs have scoop potential, but having potential is different than actually making a hand.

FWIW, I love these hands, but usually wait for a really good 4th street (a hit for me and/or bricks for villains) before I start jamming. If I don't get a "scoop" card on 4th, I wait a little longer. I'm not afraid to throw these hands away early if enough of my outs die.

Cliff notes: Draw != made hand. Slow down.
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  #4  
Old 11-26-2007, 10:36 PM
xxeximusxx xxeximusxx is offline
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Default Re: Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

you are playing way to aggresively, borderline bad on a lot of them.

slowdown, all you have is a good drawing hand. Atleast wait till fourth, no need in bloating the pot early. its ok to fold a good hand on fourth if it doesnt improve.
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Old 11-26-2007, 10:42 PM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

I would generally jam on 3rd, but reevaluate on later streets. If you start out with 3s4s5s and get Tc Qd on 4th and 5th, you should usually fold.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:29 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

[ QUOTE ]
Cliff notes: Draw != made hand. Slow down.

[/ QUOTE ]To be a little nitpicky the problem is that they're too small draws on third; not that they're draws. If you have a straight-flush draw on 4th it's monstrous, despite being a draw. At that point they actually are stronger than trips, at least typically.

I don't know why Ray Zee would compare 3 card straightflushes to trips, since it's obvious that they don't make anywhere near the amount of strong hands as trips does.

They're just small showdown favorites, 55-45 against typically playable hands, such as pairs and three card lows. Compare that to trips that are usually 3-2 or 4-1 in showdown potential. And low trips probably have *better* implied odds since it's hard to see that they're going high when they brick, whereas a lot of opponents will know to get out if you catch good on 4th and 5th with a low card showing.

I don't see why it would be bad feature for you that jamming the pot early gets you odds when you catch bad. If you chase when you don't have odds, that's a problem

I see why it might be bad because you don't really have all that much equity and playing that way might tip your hand.

I don't see the point of jamming early with a low card showing, ever. It just tightens up your possible hand range a lot, while not giving you much value.

The only way I see that being good is if there's a lot of loose players that can be valuebet with a wide range of hands. Otherwise you're just saying "look at me, I've got one of very few premium hands I could have!". Which makes playing the remaining four streets a little problematic.

There's a decent chance I'm wrong about the latter, though.
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Old 11-27-2007, 02:09 AM
Big Limpin Big Limpin is offline
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Default Re: Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

These hands are built for family pots! So I disagree with jamming early. You want to play these hands as multiway as possible. Just because your hand is 'better' doesn't mean that raising is the EV move. In fact, you can often get BIGGER pots when you start out passive, since now you can places raises on 6th/7th, as opposed to when you're jamming and can only bet out 1bb.

Its like the opposite to big pairs in Stud Hi. I like encouraging family pots with baby sf in stud8 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


*obv if the people acting behind you on 3rd are gonna call anyways no matter what you do, then go ahead and bet it up. But normally, i'd just try to get as many ppl hooked onto their hands, and pound 'em on the big streets assuming i havent bricked out.
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:43 PM
mshalen mshalen is offline
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Default Re: Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

I just thought I would agree with most of what is written above.

All you have is a good drawing hand and you want action so why jam on 3rd and drive out all those possible second best hands?

Also there have been postings over the last few weeks where players that are way better then I am have stated that they NEVER complete on 3rd. I have reviwed my past hands and agree with them. On 3rd I may have good possibilities but not a made hand by any stretch.
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Old 11-27-2007, 02:49 PM
StavrosT StavrosT is offline
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Default Re: Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

Hand 3 is probably the best played of the lot. And you should be folding on 5th in hand 2.

But what the [censored] happened in hand 6? 4th street is just spewage imo. The off suit 9 wasn't a good card considering the two dead tens and the dead 5. You're up against 2 better lows most likely and you're drawing t but o 5 outs for the straight. I don't recommend folding but why are you capping for the love of god
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:19 AM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: Playing Baby Straight-Flush Starters Too Aggro on Early Streets?

A number of years ago, Andrew Prock or someone like that did a ranking of all possible hands based on how they fared equity-wise against six random hands. I wasn't able to find it after a half-hearted Google search. AAA was best and I think something like Q93r was worst. It seems to me that there was a sizable gap between 999, the worst roll-up, and then best three-card straight-flush (I forget whether it was 654 or 543).

I personally favor putting in a moderate amount of action early on with these hands. Two or three bets is good, but if you play for five bets, which is the cap at Canterbury Park and in Vegas, you're committed to a hand that needs to hit twice. The good news is that it's pretty easy to hit. The only real blanks are 9-K of the other three suits. Of course, you're not really looking to make a pair or draw to 8543. Being a little more conservative can make the rest of the hand easier to play, but you do give up a little value. Besides, jamming is fun.
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