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  #31  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:48 PM
Copernicus Copernicus is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

Just a couple of disagreements/clarifications of the above, otherwise I agree.

1. Meat processing salaries have little to do with illegal immigrants, salaries came down because of automation.

2. You can't deport X million illegals, but you must immediately deport an illegal committing another crime after they serve the appropriate punishment.

3. They must register, get legitimate SS Nos, pay taxes etc. Employers are the only feasible way to police that they do.

4. No illegal/family of an illegal should be entitled to "in state" benefits that aren't available to out of state legal residents. (Eg Children of illegals residing in Arizona shouldnt be entitled to in state college tuition if a citizen of NJ isn't, whether or not the illegal is registered.)
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  #32  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:49 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy was offered an out-of-sequence release by the North Vietnamese because his father was a relatively-famous commander in the Navy and he turned it down because he didn't think it was fair to get sent home before other less-well-connected POWs who had been imprisoned for longer were forced to stay; he was then mercilessly tortured because of the refusal to leave.

I suppose we can debate what it means to be a "hero" and the nobility of purpose of flying jets in Vietnam, but you jumping into the Grand Canyon != McCain being offered the chance to escape imprisonment and torture but refusing to do so because it violated a dearly held principle. Not that I would expect your typical ACist to actually understand any of this kind of nuance, or why someone would do something like experience terrible physical trauma because of fidelity to dearly held principles (I know, I know -- you and Nielsio and other ACtards have experienced the terrible pain and suffering that the jackbooted thuggery of state authority and their taxation, which has wrought terribly wretched and painful lives upon you, which can only be remedied by sacrificing enormous time and energy...by posting about it on an the intraweb and YouTube. That is umm, a little similar, but not exactly the same).

Anyway, I thought it important to point this out, just in case there were other people like gobbomom out there who thought you were funny but hadn't quite considered why your analogy was retarded.
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  #33  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:56 PM
Taso Taso is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

owned.
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  #34  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:02 PM
ikestoys ikestoys is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy was offered an out-of-sequence release by the North Vietnamese because his father was a relatively-famous commander in the Navy and he turned it down because he didn't think it was fair to get sent home before other less-well-connected POWs who had been imprisoned for longer were forced to stay; he was then mercilessly tortured because of the refusal to leave.

I suppose we can debate what it means to be a "hero" and the nobility of purpose of flying jets in Vietnam, but you jumping into the Grand Canyon != McCain being offered the chance to escape imprisonment and torture but refusing to do so because it violated a dearly held principle. Not that I would expect your typical ACist to actually understand any of this kind of nuance, or why someone would do something like experience terrible physical trauma because of fidelity to dearly held principles (I know, I know -- you and Nielsio and other ACtards have experienced the terrible pain and suffering that the jackbooted thuggery of state authority and their taxation, which has wrought terribly wretched and painful lives upon you, which can only be remedied by sacrificing enormous time and energy...by posting about it on an the intraweb and YouTube. That is umm, a little similar, but not exactly the same).

Anyway, I thought it important to point this out, just in case there were other people like gobbomom out there who thought you were funny but hadn't quite considered why your analogy was retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh sir
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  #35  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:04 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?

[/ QUOTE ]

They certainly pay sales taxes when they buy things. Illegal immigrants who are assigned fake SS #s by their employers are also paying payroll taxes and aren't be eligible to collect any of the benefits.
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  #36  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:10 PM
Case Closed Case Closed is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

If we had a fair tax immigrants abusing our system would be a moot point, no?
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  #37  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:13 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
If we had a fair tax immigrants abusing our system would be a moot point, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think so, yes. "Abusing the system" may mean something like "immigrants will utilize the welfare system at a greater rate than 'native born' Americans" and that constitutes abuse, but as far as funding goes, I would suspect a national consumption tax that eliminates the need for other forms of taxation would mitigate concerns that immigrants don't fund the system.
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  #38  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:20 PM
Taso Taso is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?

[/ QUOTE ]

They certainly pay sales taxes when they buy things. Illegal immigrants who are assigned fake SS #s by their employers are also paying payroll taxes and aren't be eligible to collect any of the benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about real estate taxes? School taxes, etc? And any idea how many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes?
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  #39  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:24 PM
John Kilduff John Kilduff is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

I don't mind people just trying to better themseves, yet sympathy is dfifferent than pragmatics sometimes.

It is really the responsibility of the USA to take care of the whole world? Why can't Mexico and other countries fix their own countries and make them reasonable and prosperous places to live????? Are we to fix their countries for them? If their government is corrupt and ineffective who needs to fix it: we or they? What about their responsibility to better their own countries? Does that not exist at all?

It is a similar mindset to policing the whole world, to think that the USA must extend welfare to the world and also admit anyone who sneaks in. I'm not saying that you think this. But those two mindsets are just different sides of the same paternalistic nanny-state coin.

IMO we shouldn't be in Iraq, or Korea, or be policing the world. IMO we shouldn't feel that we are somehow responsible for taking up the slack for every corrupt government in the world that cannot get its act together enough to allow its citizens to develop relatively free and prosperous lives of their own initiatives.

We've got plenty of problems right here at home (if you don't think so, just wait 5 more years).

As Ron Paul pointed out, this country is intended to be a Republic: not an empire, not a welfare state, and not the nanny of the wide world.

You personally can't feed every homeless person that you see on the street. The USA can't admit everyone in the world (billions of people, if they could, probably) who would prefer to live here.

Of course that homeless guy you see on the corner several times a month is a human being too. So why don't you at least let him sleep in your garage for a few months, and mow and rake your lawn for food? I'm asking this of everyone, not just you, Moseley. Now apply the answer to why the USA can't be expected to open its doors to unlimited numbers of desperate unskilled uneducated people.

At most you might let one person sleep in your garage, right? Why have limits on the number of homeless people you can accomodate?

What about the responsibility of the homeless to better their own lives? Does that exist at all?

If I were formerPresidente Vicente Fox, I'd have been DAMN EMBARRASSED to have touted more illegal immigration to the USA from Mexico as a solution BECAUSE MEXICO CAN'T GET ITS ACT TOGETHER.

What is Mexico supposed to be, like a totally dysfunctional person or something?

Mexico has oil, Mexico has a tourism industry, Mexico has natural resources. Mexico has plenty of people who obviously can work. WTF? Why is Mexico's solution to send as many as possible here? And why do Mexican Presidents see that as their solution instead of getting their country's act together???

Yes, we hear how corrupt the Mexican government is and that that is why it can't get its act together. So is corruption in the Mexican genes or something (obviously not, lol)? The problem can be fixed if it is not inherent, right? So...when the government of the USA becomes too corrupt (and it's well on it's way [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ), the solution will be for most of us to move to Canada, instead of fixing the U.S. system???

If prospective immigrants have job skills, or a solid job offer, and are non-criminal and not carriers of TB or something: fine, let them immigrate through the established process. But why does 20% of the entire country of Mexico need to emigrate to another country??? And why isn't the focus on fixing that underlying flaw, rather than on a surrogate solution?

/baffled

/questions off

/rant off

Thanks for reading.
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  #40  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:40 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

[ QUOTE ]
What about real estate taxes? School taxes, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most public schools in the US are funded by a combination of local property taxes and state income taxes. Illegal immigrants almost certainly can't escape property taxes if they own property and probably bear the burden of property taxes even if they rent, since the landlord is just going to roll the price of property taxes that they're levied into the cost of renting.


[ QUOTE ]
And any idea how many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/busine...p;partner=kmarx

"In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.

Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant.

"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration."

So, according to the Social Security Admins chief actuary, the guess is that about 75% of illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes.
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