A Tiger, a LAG and a fish walk into a bar

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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I think the guaranteed information value of seeing his hand, ranks checking behind above all other options.

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With the superfish in the pot, this statement simply cannot be true. Besides Kwaz, I know youre a good enough player to understand that if the UTG folds to this river bet, that means he check/raised the turn with BS so you'll get the information you covet one way or another.

[jstill]

Im with ILP on this one. The only way i could find a check was if he had shown more strength in the hand at some point ( if there was more flop action then he check-raised the turn or if he check 3bet the turn or ck-raised after a bet and a call). Here he just check raised an A turn potentially knocking out the superfish in the middle, that to me isn't a guaranteed strength move like the others I mentioned above.

I def dont 3bet the turn tho, but on the river I think his check is more likely to reveal the most honesty about his hand ( i guess he could think the turn cold caller will definitely bet if he has aces up or just fold if he had a missed draw and thats why he went for the check-raise though, that would make sense on his part esp if he thinks u cant ck behind an A). But im not gonna give him that much credit and usually when he checks here its weakness so u can vb and win two bets probably 90% of the time or more. Id bet call if UTG check-raises (and lose most every time) and bet fold if utg calls and the fish raises. If UTG folds and the fish raises it looks too much like BS i think to fold in this pot even though he probably never bluffs like that.

And like ILP said if UTG check folds the river u've gained pretty much as much info as if u got to see his hand.

[Heisenb3rg]

I don't agree fully with above, you don't gain the same info. You gain the info that he can screwplay the turn with a weak hand in 3 way pots and give up the river.

You don't get to find to out info on his PF capping range. IMO a fairly important peice of information. He could have done this on the turn with JJ for all we know. When nearly all players cap, my instinct is to get passive with some fairly strong hands. If they are capping light, im missing value. If I know they can cap light, I can become more agressive, extracting proper value.

But I don't agree with kwaz. The more I think about the river situation (I like way the way ILP put it) it's probabily not very marginal a river bet at all and there's good value in it.
It's not even close to sacrifice this value for information that COULD gain a little more value in a future situation.

The great thing about LAG's is they play so many hands that you get to observe them frequently, therefore sacrifing immediate value for information about their odd tendencies is less valuable than it would be against a tighter player.

[Scary_Tiger]

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He could have done this on the turn with JJ for all we know.

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He had TT. I spent a ton of time on the river before checking behind, and I think it was a somewhat large mistake. Fish had A8o.

[Kwaz]

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I think the guaranteed information value of seeing his hand, ranks checking behind above all other options.

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With the superfish in the pot, this statement simply cannot be true. Besides Kwaz, I know youre a good enough player to understand that if the UTG folds to this river bet, that means he check/raised the turn with BS so you'll get the information you covet one way or another.

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When this villian checks the river, he's check/folding or check/raising. You are losing value against him ALWAYS.
You have to make that value up from superfish ALWAYS.
I'm not going to dish up some incredibley speculative* figures that have only been invented to substantiate my argument (which I could easily do). I'll let you do that in your own time and make yourself feel better about your decision (just as I have done).

I quite obviously value the informational difference [between knowing his hand is BS and actually knowing his hand] a lot more. Maybe to a fault..

* Considering, so called 'superfish' is one orbit old.

[jstill]

i see idiot lags check-raise the turn then ck call a non-scare card river all the time, i duno why but they do. I could probably show almost a dozen HHs from the last week or two where this happens

Maybe its less likely here since its not HU, but I still don't think assuming UTG always ck folds or ck raises and never calls is fair (i honestly think the distribution is more common for them to ck call than ck fold or ck raise again). This doesn't prove betting is right but just sayin.