Blind defense gets good, then gets weird

[Grease]

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this hand is 100% standard and i don't think there are any close decisions, including the river bet/call.

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Again, Tyler, you and I are of like mind.

[Entity]

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The rake structure makes you tighten up your defending standards?

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Certainly. You stand to win a lot less in high rake tables than lower ones. This becomes important in blind defense because its likely headsup so not much money is going in. I didn't realize that 2/4 online had a high rake though since I'm used to the $4 drop at 3/6 live [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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It has a high rake relative to the size of the pot and your expectation when compared to higher stakes games, but a lower rake when compared to live games. This is mitigated by the fact that your opponents are worse in live games and in lower stakes games than they are in higher stakes games, of course, but only to an extent.

You can read a bit about this as written by Abdul Jalib, but it's important to note the differences between games then and games now-- however, the extremes he uses are helpful for understanding the impact rake has on the profitability of hands, regardless of the technicalities involved.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...218ac3ae7bd940

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A rake seriously reduces the number of hands with which you can steal,
as you will be paying a lot for a crapshoot against the big blind.
With a Draconian rake, like where the big blind gets dropped once the
flop comes, you would need about JJ or better to open on the button!
Even with a modest rake, JT and 76s should be folded.

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Rob

[Absolution]

So you would be more likely to defend if he raised you from the SB? I definitely don't think much about rake, but at the level I play I should give it more thought. I think I've become too loose on the button and defending button raises in the BB. Obviously if I'm getting respect from the blinds I can loosen up, but that's true regardless of rake. If I'm getting no respect or the blinds are defending properly, then my standards should be more based on the rake.

For example, in a mid-stakes game I might be raising things like JTo, J9o, and 89s on the button, but in a low-stakes game I'm probably making a mistake against a typical BB, even though he is going to make post-flop mistakes and I have position. Hands with showdown value are still a go though. When I'm defending the same logic applies. Even if I know a guy is raising too loosely on the button for the stakes, I can't be taking gambles against him with marginal hands.

Doesn't this put the button in even more of an advantage than usual? If the button player knows that the BB has to fold more because of rake (because if he defends more he just ends up gambling with a high rake) he can continue to raise lightly. I'm just babbling.

[Entity]

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So you would be more likely to defend if he raised you from the SB? I definitely don't think much about rake, but at the level I play I should give it more thought. I think I've become too loose on the button and defending button raises in the BB. Obviously if I'm getting respect from the blinds I can loosen up, but that's true regardless of rake. If I'm getting no respect or the blinds are defending properly, then my standards should be more based on the rake.

For example, in a mid-stakes game I might be raising things like JTo, J9o, and 89s on the button, but in a low-stakes game I'm probably making a mistake against a typical BB, even though he is going to make post-flop mistakes and I have position. Hands with showdown value are still a go though. When I'm defending the same logic applies. Even if I know a guy is raising too loosely on the button for the stakes, I can't be taking gambles against him with marginal hands.

Doesn't this put the button in even more of an advantage than usual? If the button player knows that the BB has to fold more because of rake (because if he defends more he just ends up gambling with a high rake) he can continue to raise lightly. I'm just babbling.

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The button can take more advantage of it than the players who are out of position can, that's for sure. Getting first right of entry to the pot will allow you to steal somewhat more liberally as long as the players are tightening up, as they should, in the BB. This, of course, is assuming a large rake; at 2/4, the rake isn't HUGE like it is in the Abdullian example, so actually seeing examples of this isn't going to be incredibly easy. It's something I'll admit that I haven't thought a ton about, but I do try to be cognizant of things like the impact of rake, time pots, things like that when playing hands, especially when the hand is a very marginal hand to begin with.

Rob

[Absolution]

I've noticed that about you. It's the same reason you don't raise middlish aces after a bunch of limpers in these games (or even limp behind) or reraise things like ATo against typical players. DD seems to be more liberal with these things.

[Shillx]

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The rake structure makes you tighten up your defending standards?

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Yeah and your stealing standards. Imagine playing in a 6/12 online game. You are risking $12 to win the $9 in the blinds. If you are playing in a live game where they automatically drop the SB (it happens) you are now risking $12 to win $6. Of course you should steal less and that in turn makes it correct to defend less. Not only are you getting 3:1 instead of 3.5:1 to call the raise but the stealers range is tighter then what it is in an online game.

[Entity]

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I've noticed that about you. It's the same reason you don't raise middlish aces after a bunch of limpers in these games (or even limp behind) or reraise things like ATo against typical players. DD seems to be more liberal with these things.

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I'm actually slightly looser overall than DD is, but I tend to play hands with more implied odds and less reverse implied odds. Overall when we play in multiway pots I'd say we do about 98% of things the same, though, FWIW. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob

[Big Folder]

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The rake structure makes you tighten up your defending standards?

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Certainly. You stand to win a lot less in high rake tables than lower ones. This becomes important in blind defense because its likely headsup so not much money is going in. I didn't realize that 2/4 online had a high rake though since I'm used to the $4 drop at 3/6 live [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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It has a high rake relative to the size of the pot and your expectation when compared to higher stakes games, but a lower rake when compared to live games. This is mitigated by the fact that your opponents are worse in live games and in lower stakes games than they are in higher stakes games, of course, but only to an extent.

You can read a bit about this as written by Abdul Jalib, but it's important to note the differences between games then and games now-- however, the extremes he uses are helpful for understanding the impact rake has on the profitability of hands, regardless of the technicalities involved.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...218ac3ae7bd940

[ QUOTE ]
A rake seriously reduces the number of hands with which you can steal,
as you will be paying a lot for a crapshoot against the big blind.
With a Draconian rake, like where the big blind gets dropped once the
flop comes, you would need about JJ or better to open on the button!
Even with a modest rake, JT and 76s should be folded.

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Rob

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So my game falls into the draconian rake territory since they drop $4 before the flop. Thus, blind steals are basically worthless unless you are holding a premium hand? This is probably doubly so since most of the blinds call anything anyways and will often go to showdown without much. Blind steals are very rare at 3/6 live(I've only been involved in 2-3 of them in maybe 30 hours of play), but its something to keep in mind.

How does this affect semi-steals such as when a loose limper comes in, everyone else folds, you are on the button with A7o? Would the extra 2sb gained make a difference?

[Aaron W.]

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Any hand that is marginally profitable at best moves from that marginally profitable category to breakeven or unprofitable as rake escalates. Though it's been a while since I've specifically played the Stars $2/4 6max games, if I had to hazard a guess the rake overall is above 4bb/100.

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Thanks for the thoughts and ongoing discussion regarding the rake. It's definitely a part of the game that I don't ever think about.

Anyway, I called and he turned over J9 clubs for the runner-runner re-suck-out special.

[Entity]

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Any hand that is marginally profitable at best moves from that marginally profitable category to breakeven or unprofitable as rake escalates. Though it's been a while since I've specifically played the Stars $2/4 6max games, if I had to hazard a guess the rake overall is above 4bb/100.

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Thanks for the thoughts and ongoing discussion regarding the rake. It's definitely a part of the game that I don't ever think about.

Anyway, I called and he turned over J9 clubs for the runner-runner re-suck-out special.

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It's not really a runner-runner when he has the best hand on the flop and 17 outs on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob