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#71
08-07-2007, 02:34 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
Since you consider it won, where are the replies to all of my meta-points about what this vote actually means from the world view of the Great Libertarian Struggle? [/ QUOTE ] Start another thread for spewing your anti-libertarian vitriol. This is the thread where you were slandering Dr. Paul by calling him a racist genocidal government-loving baby-eater, remember? 
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#72
08-07-2007, 02:35 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
You made a point about how you didnt think that free markets would prevent genocide [/ QUOTE ] No. I'm making a point that "free market" and "morality" have very little to do with each other. A genocide is just the biggest, baddest thing you can think of - but as shown here, it turns out the libertarian reliance on that 'rational consumer' model has a few little flaws in it, to the point where nobody even knows what Sudan's exports are, much less boycotts them. How about slavery - do you know which conglomerates have African subs whose chain of supply has slaves in it? Child labor? (That particular one's got a long history - most of which is full of activists getting nowhere for a very long time until government stepped in and put pressure of Nike.) Take your pick; there are lots and lots of Really Bad Things that Libertopia is requiring you, specifically, times 300 million, to a)know about and b)boycott. Just wait until I start talking about the Libertopian food supply.
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#73
08-07-2007, 02:35 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm not a Ron Paul supporter, but your posts about the Sudan are pure spin. Do you seriously not understand what Paul thinks the role of federal government is? His voting record is very consistent regarding bills like this. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, yes I do. I completely understand his principles make his vote thoroughly consistent. I also feel that those principles are morally repugnant at best and...let's not go there, at worst. [ QUOTE ] Are you trying to imply Ron Paul == Racist + 4 genocide because of this vote? You could make your case much better by talking about his views on immigration instead of harping about this stupid Sudan bill that is simply a smokescreen to get us to think that govt CARES about people dying and babies. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know about you, but believe it or not, I do actually care about whether some of the whole lot of money that I paid to the government last year is going to purchase Sudan's oil/contributing to the "let's buy the janjaweed some faster choppers" fund. But, really, I'm not even trying to make a "real" case (See, this word is in quotes. What do you think that means?) for Paul being racist - although I'm pretty sure he is. As you say, there's lots of things to get Paul on. What I do want to point out with this is that Paul subscribes to an ideology that basically says "I would rather vote to make sure an investor reserves the right to sue a pension manager for dropping a Sudan investment than to let that manager actually stop doing business with a genocidal client." Combine that with the libertarian-espoused idea that the free market corrects itself for morality, and you see where I'm going with this. [/ QUOTE ] You are purposefully making dishonest arguments that are sarcastic and emo-- all the while attributing motives to Paul that are clearly false. Then when your posts are questioned you respond with condescencion. It looks like you read the OP and are now applying it well. Although this makes it possible that we are all being levelled by adanthar. In that case, pure brilliance.
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#74
08-07-2007, 02:39 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] And our current government has done such a great job of stopping genocides? It has let this one in darfur go on and on and on, it let the one in 1994 in rwanda happen, there are others, but my point is made. [/ QUOTE ] So what? Ron Paul doesn't want intervention, either - clearly, if you're asking Paulmerica to prevent genocides by force, you're barking up the wrong tree. In fact, I'm pretty sure nobody wants anything to do with using force - we've all had enough of Iraq lately. But, oddly enough, that's not what this bill does, because this is as toothless as these types of bills get. *All* that it does is to - largely voluntarily - ensure as little money goes to Sudan as possible. Hell, it's barely even concerned with the actual genocide; it just says "these people are evil and we want nothing to do with them, so when bidding for federal contracts, please don't turn around and deal with them next". That's the same thing that the Libertopian rational consumer is expected to do for himself hundreds of times a day, isn't it? [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure if there was a vote to end genocide, Paul would be all for it, but that is not how the real world operates. Paul sees it as just another piece of legislation that is potentially harmful. At best it has no effect. So clearly a bad deal for Americans and thus it is very easy to vote against if you are one to use logic. And very easy to vote for if you want to feel better about yourself and pretend like you're doing anything to help people.
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#75
08-07-2007, 02:41 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Since you consider it won, where are the replies to all of my meta-points about what this vote actually means from the world view of the Great Libertarian Struggle? [/ QUOTE ] Start another thread for spewing your anti-libertarian vitriol. This is the thread where you were slandering Dr. Paul by calling him a racist genocidal government-loving baby-eater, remember? [/ QUOTE ] I don't see any slander involved in bringing up his own newsletter and his own votes as part of a discussion of the overall philosophy he subscribes to. In fact, I'll repeat his own words one more time: [ QUOTE ] Would the Congress offer the same safe harbor provision to fund managers who wish to divest from firms offering fatty foods, growing tobacco, or doing business in Europe? [/ QUOTE ] Odds are they wouldn't, for the simple, basic reason that there's a slight difference between genocide and fatty foods. And the fact that Ron Paul believes there's a slippery slope argument in there says a lot.
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#76
08-07-2007, 02:47 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
(Mod hat off)
Knock it off about how Adanthar is leveling everyone. I for one think he's making a lot of sense. People's ethics get much cloudier when you start waving dollars in front of them. If PVN were here, I'm sure he'd leave the argument with how government in Sudan is causing the genocide.
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#77
08-07-2007, 02:54 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
(Mod hat off) Knock it off about how Adanthar is leveling everyone. I for one think he's making a lot of sense. [/ QUOTE ] Was that before or after he started linking to white supremacist sites? [ QUOTE ] People's ethics get much cloudier when you start waving dollars in front of them. [/ QUOTE ] And how is that a point in favor of government?
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#78
08-07-2007, 03:02 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You made a point about how you didnt think that free markets would prevent genocide [/ QUOTE ] No. I'm making a point that "free market" and "morality" have very little to do with each other. A genocide is just the biggest, baddest thing you can think of [/ QUOTE ] And what gives us genocides, pray tell? Why, your very favorite solution to all the world's ills: governments! Governments murdered almost 200 million of their own citizens during peacetime in the 20th century alone, not counting the tens of millions murdered in wars. This is orders of magnitude more than the total number of private murders committed during that time, and indeed in the history of the world. Yet what do you want? More government. How many dead will be enough for you? 500 million? A billion? More?
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#80
08-07-2007, 03:08 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
Incidentally, Borodog, while I'm at it, you sure love to talk about how I'm moving the goalposts while neglecting the fact that this thread's OP (and such an awesome OP at that) seems to be about, well, libertarianism, and not so much Ron Paul. Pretty much everything about Paul is a great example of libertarianism in action (including the rabid fundamentalist parts I haven't brought up yet), so if it seems like I'm picking on him, it's for a good reason, but he's not the subject of the thread.
Let's pretend the subject is the less stupid "libertarians should use logic to convert people". I've just mentioned something that, to me, certainly looks like a giant flaw in the whole philosophy - the weird underlying assumption that the market just sorta randomly accounts for morality (as well as human safety and a bunch of other good stuff) without much work on anyone's part. The fact that it doesn't even come close seems self-evident. Instead of calling me pathetic from the very first reply, go ahead and logically convince me otherwise.
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