SB in a limped pot, 4/180

[Sherman]

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I don't think a flop bet really accomplishes anything here aside from bloating the pot OOP. We have middle pair on a draw heavy board in an unraised pot. Your opponents could essentially have anything and it's highly unlikely that this will induce all folds. I check flop and re-evaluate later.

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I disagree. This is a multiway pot and villain's could have at least 12 outs against our hand on the flop (that is likely to be the best hand right now BTW). Bet the flop to protect your hand.

[mflip]

Yeah, I think our hand is too vulnerable to check flop. I'm interested in more thoughts on Adam's c/c turn line and why it's preferable (unless it's exactly what I said up there ^^)

[BlueEcho]

Is this another one of those situations where checking the turn allows villian to bet a wider range? Thus adding value to our call/hand?

FWIW call pf, raise flop, fold river.

I think it might be close between betting turn and check/calling for value. But once you add pot control to the equation maybe a check is better?

[DVaut1]

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I think it might be close between betting turn and check/calling for value. But once you add pot control to the equation maybe a check is better?

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If we're betting the flop to protect the best hand in a multiway pot against villians who could have more than ten outs against us, checking the turn when the 8 comes sounds wrong. In fact, it allows our opponents to control the pot, because they can check behind with a worse hand that they would've called a bet with. It allows them to keep the pot smallish with a hand like 65, 76, or hands with a 7 or 5 that also have a heart.

So, *if* we're betting this flop, then we should bet this turn too.

[BlueEcho]

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I think it might be close between betting turn and check/calling for value.

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If we're betting the flop to protect the best hand in a multiway pot against villians who could have more than ten outs against us, checking the turn when the 8 comes sounds wrong.

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You know it sounds weird to me too but if you look at it from a value stand point I like it.

[Dunkman]

I'm torn between b/f and c/c on the turn. I think draws are a lot of villain's range (especially his calling range on the turn, I'd think he's raising an 8, obviously he may just call if he has like a boat or something just hoping we're drawing and hit it.) The draws may call a bet, but check behind if checked to. However, a river bet is a lot easier to call (assuming river looked at least somewhat safe, unlike the one that actually came) if the turn went check/check than if it went bet/call.

[Quercus]

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I don't think a flop bet really accomplishes anything here aside from bloating the pot OOP. We have middle pair on a draw heavy board in an unraised pot. Your opponents could essentially have anything and it's highly unlikely that this will induce all folds. I check flop and re-evaluate later.

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I disagree. This is a multiway pot and villain's could have at least 12 outs against our hand on the flop (that is likely to be the best hand right now BTW). Bet the flop to protect your hand.

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I look at this draw heavy flop, my weak made hand, the small pot, the largish stack I have, my reverse implied odds, the implied odds I'm giving everyone else, and the very low odds that I'll be able to pick up enough chips to justify all that risk and decide that I'll find better situations later and just check fold the flop.

[DVaut1]

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I think it might be close between betting turn and check/calling for value.

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If we're betting the flop to protect the best hand in a multiway pot against villians who could have more than ten outs against us, checking the turn when the 8 comes sounds wrong.

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You know it sounds weird to me too but if you look at it from a value stand point I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather check/call the flop from a value standpoint if we're trying to trap semi-bluff bets here. I really don't know how I feel about a flop bet here. It's probably the best hand on the flop, but we're dumping if half the deck (4, 6, 9 or heart) comes, and the villains know our range is so loose (from their view, we could just as easily be semi-bluffing here) that I don't really see us getting many hands to fold by betting this flop. Check/folding the flop doesn't sound awful to me, because betting/building a bigger pot OOP where I have no idea where I'm at sounds like a recipe for chip spew.

[BlueEcho]

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I think it might be close between betting turn and check/calling for value.

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If we're betting the flop to protect the best hand in a multiway pot against villians who could have more than ten outs against us, checking the turn when the 8 comes sounds wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know it sounds weird to me too but if you look at it from a value stand point I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather check/call the flop from a value standpoint if we're trying to trap semi-bluff bets here. I really don't know how I feel about a flop bet here. It's probably the best hand on the flop, but we're dumping if half the deck (4, 6, 9 or heart) comes, and the villains know our range is so loose (from their view, we could just as easily be semi-bluffing here) that I don't really see us getting many hands to fold by betting this flop. Check/folding the flop doesn't sound awful to me, because betting/building a bigger pot OOP where I have no idea where I'm at sounds like a recipe for chip spew.

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I guess on the flop the difference for me is I'm thinking I really might have the best hand and can possibly take it down now. On the turn there has been some resistance (the flop call) so to add value to our hand that might not be best now I check/call. I'm kind of arguing a point that i'm not to sure of so forgive me. Dunkman's point of it making the river easier to call if it goes check/check on turn is also helpful.

[Sherman]

This thread is getting very confusing between flop play and turn play.

Anyhow, here are my thoughts from start to finish.

PF - completing is meh, ok.

Flop - We have to bet to protect our hand on this board. It is multiway and there are many draws out there. If we are beat, betting is the sure way to find out. I'd hate to see a 6,9,T,J,Q and probably other cards hit on the turn for free against two opponents.

Turn - Good result in that one opponent folded. We don't have such a strong desire to protect our hand now. We only have one opponent and the turn card either put him WA or still drawing, but it is tough to be sure. His flop call showed some strength, so let's check and re-evaluate.

River - Ok. If villain checked behind on the turn, we might be in the unfortunate spot of having to check/call a small river bet here, although it sucks. Anything ~1/2 the pot or more is probably a fold. If villain bet the turn, I'd probably call and check/fold this river.

Summary:
So, if villain outplayed us here and took this pot away with us with a worse hand, kudos to him. There just wasn't much we could do. This is the trouble with playing OOP when the turn and river don't cooperate. We have to make tough decisions, but overall, I think we lose the least on this line and protect our hand when we might be ahead, while forcing our opponent to truly outplay us if he is bluffing.

As a side note, if some non-scary cards hit on the river (there really aren't many in the deck) we can check/call a larger bet than I am advocating.