attempt at multi-stepped pot building

[Guruman]

k, so I got NLHE T and P by Sk/Miller yesterday and I really liked the example they gave of reverse-engineering the pot size based on the desire to get it all in on the river. I played a hand today that put me in the exact situation where I needed to do this, and here's how it looked.

[if you respond to this, please critique my thought process. Please do not just offer alternate lines with no discussion behind it. This forum is kind of bad about that. Thx.]

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $16.70
CO: $31.25
Button: $5.50
Guruman: $25.45
BB: $18.50

Pre-flop: (5 players) Guruman is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, Button calls, Guruman calls $0.15 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $0.6)</font>,

cheap call and bb is deep enough to make implied odds correct on flopping big. Button openlimped with a very short stack, so who knows wtf he has, but its unlikely to be very big since an open-shove from him will get called by a wider range than usual.

<font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $0.5</font>, Button calls, Guruman calls $0.25 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $1.25)</font>.

BB makes a ridiculously small raise that smells like a pot sweetener sine he can’t expect anyone to fold. I’ll tentatively put him on a pr or suited connector here. Also an outside chance he has a big hand, but I’ll call that unlikely for now. Button just called instead of using the opportunity to shove, so his hand isn’t made and he plays bad.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($1.5, 3 players)
Guruman checks,

ok, big flop for me and at this point I’m looking to get it all in there. BB has initiative and button is short stacked but strangely still calling a lot, so who knows what either is going to do. In the end I decided to try and let bb cont bet so that I could put a small raise in and make a turn bet easier to size up.

In retrospect though, I think I clearly should have led out. BB has initiative, but it’s of the weak variety and he may not cont bet this if it didn’t hit whatever range he was trying to sweeten with. Also, if I lead out it will look like I’m on the draw and when I checkraise it looks like I have a made hand. Also, BB won’t be able to push button out of the pot if button wants to play because of how short he is.

<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $1</font>, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">Guruman raises to $2.75</font>,

given the I checked, I got a good outcome there. The second problem with checkraising manisfests itself here though, in that I had a hard time coming up with a checkraise size that would induce calls. Because I’m checkraising a threeway field I’m repping a lot of strength, so any ok handreader should be able to get away from some hands that he would be calling with if I had just led out. With that said, my whole mission on the flop was to inflate the pot, and here was my opportunity to do it. I put in a smallish sized checkraise, but one that was sized well enough to stairsteup up to the remainder of BB’s stack by the river.

BB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in $5</font>, Guruman calls $2.25 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $12)</font>,

button finally shoved, and in the perfect spot for me. Now bb can’t get away. I call and look for the next street.

BB calls.

At this point BB’s got $14 left in a $16.5 pot with a dry side pot. Given the flop texture I’d say it has to be an overpair, overpr with a gutshot, top pr, or some combodraw playing weakly. I think he’s going to have a hard time keeping any part of his stack given the action he gave on this flop.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($16.5, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $16.5)
<font color="#cc0000">Guruman bets $7</font>,

kind of a bad turn card for me because if villain’s on an overpair or top pr he could get away here since I’ll be betting out into a dry side pot. ah well, gotta do it regardless. I bet half his stack, but I should have sized it a bit under that so that the river bet could be better proportionally. I don’t think I could have bet more than that in this situation.

BB calls.

hurrah.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($30.5, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $16.5, Sidepot 1: $14)
<font color="#cc0000">Guruman bets $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB calls all-in $6</font>.

Results:
Final pot: $42.5

I spent the whole hand reeling BB in. he has to have a hand to pay me off, but my betting structure allowed me to get paid by a much wider arrange of hands than if I had just open-pushed the flop. I’m still sure I should have bet the flop, but given the check I liked my play on the rest of the hand.

Thoughts?

[corsakh]

Sorry, I could barely continue after your flop c/r to "inflate the pot", but had to stop after you flat called the button all in.

Thread delivers.

[Waingro]

I think this is absolutely the wrong flop for "pot-building". On this flop, I am looking to get as much money in on the flop as possible. An insane number of cards is going to be bad for you on the turn. Also, if you complete with 9To pf, I would hesitate to use the term "implied odds". Both opponents will end up with exactly nothing most of the time.

[monkover]

i as well whink your flop check is really bad for the same reasons you talked about. A lead makes the hands so much easier to play.
I dont like your call though when bb shoves. I wouldn´t call here but raise instead. I´m trying to get as much mones in the pot now as possible and there are just too many cards that can come off on the turn that will prevent any further action. A nine would be sick turn card for example or any heart.
so lead the turn and raise after bb push.

[monkover]

bump

[Guruman]

ok, so here's the part that's not lining up right in my head re: play after bb shoves:

If I've already decided on the flop that I intend to get all of the chips in the middle (because lots of action could still come via twopr, understr8, or a set), then I'm not really reading what cards come off next in the context of my own folds. The objective is to get it all in and get it called - so if it takes multiple streets to do so then that's what I do.

I mean, what's the diff between shoving and getting called on the flop and getting it all in over multiple streets even if the 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falls. I'm still getting paid by sets and understraights and I'm not folding.

It seems like the diff is that I can still get paid by overpairs and top pr, whereas if I shove I blow those hands out of the pot.

Am I totally off base in this? If I decide to commit, then I'm committed no?

[Guruman]

bump for [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[BackdoorQuads]

As played, I'm not sure. It really depends on what the BB has. If he's got a draw, I think another min-re-raise on the flop is best. If he's got something like top pair, it's still probably best if you think he'll call the $4.50. This gets the pot to like, $18 with about $11 behind, and you can probably get more value from him on the turn (by making it like, $7?). I'm really curious as to what he actually had. The only hands I see that call you down as played, but fold to another raise, are A6/A7, maybe A8...? I don't know. Leading is certainly best, but I say throw in another small raise as played.

[Guruman]

villain showed 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[ciro bonano]

[ QUOTE ]
If I've already decided on the flop that I intend to get all of the chips in the middle (because lots of action could still come via twopr, understr8, or a set), then I'm not really reading what cards come off next in the context of my own folds. The objective is to get it all in and get it called - so if it takes multiple streets to do so then that's what I do.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's certainly true, but future cards can influence Villain's decisions (as you already pointed out). There could fall cards that kill your hand (unlikely, unless he has a flush draw) or kill your action (as you already pointed out). Without doing any math, my feeling suggests that hands where villain would call multiple-street-bets with would also call another flop raise. That certainly is true for drawing hands, which won't call the river bet when missed, but I think it also holds for overpairs.

Something which confuses me: when you raise to $2.75 and button pushes for $5, that doesn't reopen the betting right? The minimal raise would be to $5.50 and he doesn't have that, right?


Guru: You probably know this, but don't overthink low-limit NL. Just flop a good hand and play it fast, as you probably will get paid off anyway.

(corsakh: you're being a [cencored].)