Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
Then there's the obvious argument that most wars are caused by religion, coupled with all the intolerance, hate, and bigotry, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly a war like Iraq's was caused by religion? Vietnam? WWII? Hell, any modern war? You should find plenty since you used the word "most"

No doubt some people fighting a war are religious and maybe even some of them have a religious motive to fight, but come on, the ONES, the important people who decide to start wars, probably they may go to mass on Sunday (or whatever cult they profess), but I really doubt religion is high in their list of motives to go to war.

[sirio11]

David,

I think what you said it's definitely true, and to be honest, I don't know how anybody can argue otherwise. It's enough to know people and this world where we live in; but I understand that in order to see this, you need to think of happiness in a practical matter and the problem with some it's to think happiness as some ethereal objective concept (like the Christian God, ironically) . Plenty of people are happy with their delusions (religion, love, money, whatever) and they would be very unhappy if the delusions suddenly disappear.

I even think the probability of "unhappiness" is higher for those going the atheist way. If only for the anguish caused by knowing you know almost nothing and too many things seem to be unbearable random.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
How do we reconcile the numbers that seem contrary to this - divorce rates, crime rates, etc

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, people divorce because it's pretty hard to live with the same human being for a long time, nothing to do with religion. I mean the divorce rate of intellectuals is kind of high.

Ah, and plenty of divorced people (religious or not) are pretty happy

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

People like NotReady, who actually know or suspect the atheist position is correct and continue to be religious regardless, are in the minority I think.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for reminding me why I left.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for reminding me why I left.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was excited to see your name, so I clicked on it and was sad to see this. I always enjoyed your posts FWIW.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I always enjoyed your posts FWIW.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Unfortunately, atheism could never make me as happy as not posting here.

[Allinlife]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.newspolls.org/story.php?story_id=53

"An even stronger factor is the power of organized religion --any religion--on a sense of well-being.

"Although their numbers were small, Jewish participants in the poll were the most likely of any group to say they are very happy. Protestants--especially self-identified "born again" evangelicals--also report a high rate of contentment.

"Sixty percent of people who have recently attended worship services at a church, synagogue or mosque say they are very happy, compared to 46 percent of people who have not publicly worshiped and 44 percent who have no religious preferences."

[/ QUOTE ]
there is a great potential 3rd variable for this study, which is the level of socialization the people were exposed to.

also to DS, I can see how the statement "religion does more good than harm" could be very well be true for various individuals, but I think it's still very arguable that as a whole, it does more bad to society by endorsing irrational thought patterns that don't require justification or critical thinking, and prevent people from being objective and openminded towards others.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
But, since you brought it up, I would be very surprised to find that a significant number of atheists are content with theirs lives.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's a hard one to determine. Atheism is correlated with intelligence, with educational attainment, and with wealth, which are all correlated with happiness. So based on that alone it's likely that atheists are happier. But that's weak evidence.

I think it would be instructive to look at the contentment in various highly religious and highly atheist societies. I'd be shocked if countries like sweden (>50% atheist/non believer) score lower than the highly religious USA in terms of happiness or contentment. If you look at this list I doubt you'd see much differential between the top and the bottom to be honest. If anything, the top may be happier.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

So I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Further evidence (albeit weak, it's all I can find)

Denmark happiest country > 43% atheists
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/li...-happiness-net
^atheist countries score highly in this list, higher than more religious countries.

So, back in your box.

[ QUOTE ]
I highly doubt that Thoreau was limiting the field to theists.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course not. He was taking a negative and petty view of all life.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really believe that the majority of atheists, on this forum for example, aren’t interested in questions other than the here and now?

[/ QUOTE ]
Many people are interested in this, especially atheists which in my experience tend to be intellectually curious and more open to experience.

[ QUOTE ]
If you say no, then what do you think the odds are of coming up with any real answers? The odds can’t be any better than the odds of Islam being True.

[/ QUOTE ]
Real answers to what? I also like to do math problems on here as well, but I don't think it's going to solve Goldbach's conjecture. I like to discuss politics too, but again I don't think it will lead to any real answers to the world's problems.

[ QUOTE ]
Who are the ones kidding themselves?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure what you're asking here.

[ QUOTE ]
And btw,

[ QUOTE ]
…true moral courage…

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
… a lack of spirit, a lack of courage, and a lack of heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do those words even mean? What, to live? Most people don’t commit suicide.

[/ QUOTE ]
The author takes a hideously unhappy view of life. You don't need to go to a prominent Christian literature to find such uninspiring drivel...just find a depressed patient at the local hospital and give him a piece of paper. Mainly people choose to live their lives bravely, with hope, faith and a reverence for a life. The author is obviously not one of those people, and that he would exalted in Christian writings really surprises me.

Let's look at a few choice quotes, starting with the opening line:

[ QUOTE ]
WHEREVER you are, wherever you go, you are miserable unless you turn to God

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I've met plenty of happy and spiritual people who don't believe in God. Buddhist monks strike me as a lot more content that Catholic priests, BTW.

[ QUOTE ]
So why be dismayed when things do not happen as you wish and desire?

[/ QUOTE ]
Who is dismayed by this? Mostly idiots who believe the world should be a certain way. Those who accept life as it is are rarely dismayed by it. This is one of the harms of religion - children are taught to believe that God thinks they're special and looks out for them. Who the hell wouldn't be dismayed when life takes a bad turn after believing something life that???

[ QUOTE ]
How foolish and faithless of heart are those who are so engrossed in earthly things as to relish nothing but what is carnal! Miserable men indeed, for in the end they will see to their sorrow how cheap and worthless was the thing they loved.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you call friends, experiences, kindness and the meaningful connections you've had with people "carnal earthly things", and "cheap and worthless", then I don't know what to say. These are much of the pleasure of life for compassionate atheists and they mean a lot.

[ QUOTE ]
So long as we live in this fragile body, we can neither be free from sin nor live without weariness and sorrow.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does that matter? There is both sorrow and joy in life. Why should people be living in an uber happy state for eternity? Seems little more than the fairytale wish of a child. Life is what it is, and it has both its gifts and disappointments. I happen to think it's amazing that we're even alive, and I'm grateful for it. The author of the passage is too busy staring at his navel (and bible) to appreciate what God has given him.

[Alex-db]

Isn't OP's viewpoint similar to Constantine's, when he effectively decideded to 'invent' organised Christianity in 300AD to control his population?

I admit, in discussions like this, to having 2 separate viewpoints depending on the type of audience.

In an ideological debate I would like everyone to be libertarian, well educated and not brainwashed.

In reality, I suspect that 80% of people aren't capable enough to accept that responsibilty, I accept that more Machiavellian political views are probably optimal, and that most of the population shouldn't even have to accept the responsibily of voting (OF COURSE we should lie to the general public regarding wars, NEVER hold referendums on important economic issues, etc), and that it is possible that broadly brainwashing the populace with a systematic lie maybe a good idea.

The difficulty is that most people have the opinion that they do not want to be brainwashed, so if I canvass opinions on whether I should promote libertarian responsibilty or dictatorial brainwashing, the majority choose 'wrongly'.

Also, perhaps we should contact various Church leaders and suggest we change their religions, almost make a completely new religion, in an attempt to address the issues of horrific morality they promote.

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't OP's viewpoint similar to Constantine's, when he effectively decideded to 'invent' organised Christianity in 300AD to control his population?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, OP is talking about individual happiness.

And Constantine did not invent organized religion, as it had existed for many thousand years. What he did do was end the persecutions of christians and he actually left the doctrines of the churches to church leaders.