DeathDonkey is in the well

[Buzz-cp]

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Sexy DeathDonkey upshort (on the far right):



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yeah i saw that one--couldn't find the one with the wife--searching all his posts in OOT max 4 years allowed.

[Bruce D]

I think I have preflop and flop strategy down where I am not really making tough decisions which is great. I don't want to have to make tough decisions.

Preflop and flop mistakes have little consequence when you make them unless they are repeated mistakes. To top it off the price of the mistake is small (again unless you continually and frequently make the same mistake) Given the nature of preflop it's fairly easy to know where you stand as far as the strength of your hand is concerned if you are playing in a game where the players are straight forward preflop.

I think my biggest difficulty is making decisions on the turn and the river. I think this is where I lose my most money. Either calling to much or folding too much trying to be too exact in giving hand ranges. eg No reads on players. I have TT in MP and open raise. The Btn 3 bets it and all the blinds fold to me. I raise or call here depending on my feel of the individual, but with no reads HU I call. The flop comes 239r and I c/r and he calls. The turn comes an A. I almost always c/f here. I think well, he three bet me. He alomst always has AJs+, KQ, and 99+. Against this range I think I have to fold to a bet. Somehow I feel this is such a weak play though. If he checks the turn then I bet any non face card and fold to a raise.

Obviously reading and posting hands is a great way to try to understand what types of decisions need to be made here.

What has helped you in solidifying your post flop play?

[DeathDonkey]

Yeah I can't find it either, not sure why, this picture with bisonbison is way older. Yes that's my knee [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Such a fun trip, first time I met many of those guys, that picture is in the Wynn at one of the bars after a very drunk bisonbison knocked over that entire tray of shots of Grey Goose ($$$)

-DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

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I think I have preflop and flop strategy down where I am not really making tough decisions which is great. I don't want to have to make tough decisions.

Preflop and flop mistakes have little consequence when you make them unless they are repeated mistakes. To top it off the price of the mistake is small (again unless you continually and frequently make the same mistake) Given the nature of preflop it's fairly easy to know where you stand as far as the strength of your hand is concerned if you are playing in a game where the players are straight forward preflop.

I think my biggest difficulty is making decisions on the turn and the river. I think this is where I lose my most money. Either calling to much or folding too much trying to be too exact in giving hand ranges. eg No reads on players. I have TT in MP and open raise. The Btn 3 bets it and all the blinds fold to me. I raise or call here depending on my feel of the individual, but with no reads HU I call. The flop comes 239r and I c/r and he calls. The turn comes an A. I almost always c/f here. I think well, he three bet me. He alomst always has AJs+, KQ, and 99+. Against this range I think I have to fold to a bet. Somehow I feel this is such a weak play though. If he checks the turn then I bet any non face card and fold to a raise.

Obviously reading and posting hands is a great way to try to understand what types of decisions need to be made here.

What has helped you in solidifying your post flop play?

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Mostly just repetitive experience. You start to get in similar situations postflop and either you learn to do something that is wrong and hopefully someone tells you about it when you make a hand post and you fix it, or you learn to do things right and never really worry about them again. The situation becomes second nature to you and you don't spend too much time thinking about it when it occurs.

I will say that even preflop decisions are never completely figured out, because eventually everything is situational, I have folded TT for one raise, and 3 bet with A3o in MP (both live) correctly IMO both times. Especially when you get in button steal / blind battle situations, preflop decisions are not that easy, but I know what you mean about turn/river stuff being more difficult and/or meaningful.

In the example you gave I think you play those hands ok. If his range for 3 betting was a bit wider then you should think about calling his turn bet and check/folding the river. In theory, the advantage of this play is he will take one shot with a hand worse than yours but rarely fire two bluffs at the pot, and he may think he has some showdown value with a hand like KQ high so he can check that behind on the river hoping to beat a worse hand. But there are plenty of other, much more subtle postflop spots we find ourselves in where an expert player will see all the variables and save or make an extra bet. Hand posts in the higher stakes forums generally try and do this but sometimes people harp on a preflop thing too so it never is solved.

-DeathDonkey

[MacGuyV]

Re: the turn & river: how often do you bluff 3bet or C/R and what are the best conditions for it (obv. villian has to know the fold button so I'm talking more about board texture I guess)? I never used to do this but have been expirmenting lately due to boredom and the influx of Tags that have migrated to Stars from Party. Is the easy answer to just stop?

[HOWMANY]

Is the 40/80 BOTE game you talked about in a recent blog entry a regular game at Commerce? Is there a regular mix game at 1/2? If so, what factors cause you to play straight holdem instead of the mix?

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recently I learned Badeucey which is a 5 card draw game with three drawing rounds (triple draw) where the pot is split between the best 2-7 triple draw lowball hand and the best 4 card badugi hand where the nut badugi is 2345 rainbow.


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This is basically a theory question I guess. I've thought about this game before I ever heard of it actually being played and at the time I couldn't decide whether it would best be played as A-5/Badugi split, 2-7/Badugi split or 2-7/Badugi 2-5 split. At the time I felt like having it be 2-7/Badugi with normal Badugi rankings would make it so that starting hands with an Ace would be trap hands for suckers, which I at first thought was good and one of my favorite reasons to play split pot games. After thinking about it more I thought that by having it 2-7/Badugi it would be just like Stud hilo regular and that the bad but not retarded players wouldn't play high hands (in this case non-nut Ace starting hands) and the truly horrible ones would play their A25 starters and quickly go BUSTO which is bad for the long term. Thoughts on these ideas and whether 2-7/Badugi 2-5 is the best way to play it?

Do you think wacky games like the triple draw split pot games or 2-7 Razz will ever be popular at higher levels or are they just gimmicky games that people make up and play for a couple days before they get bored of it?

You probably aren't the person to ask, but I thought of it for some reason, so I'll mention it anyway. Why do you think there have basically been no new big bet poker games for quite some time at higher levels (in fact it might be fair to say there are actually fewer), yet there have been a decent amount of new limit games, not even including the crazy variations created by mixing two games together. A similar question: why are there so many different limit games that are fairly widely played, and so few big bet games?

Why am I so horrible at NL Holdem and when will people stop playing this game so that all the great NL players will be in my games losing their money before they learn the art of never folding?

[DeathDonkey]

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Re: the turn & river: how often do you bluff 3bet or C/R and what are the best conditions for it (obv. villian has to know the fold button so I'm talking more about board texture I guess)? I never used to do this but have been expirmenting lately due to boredom and the influx of Tags that have migrated to Stars from Party. Is the easy answer to just stop?

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A decent time to "make a move" on the turn is when a scary card hits AND you have outs in case you get called on the turn. Blindly taking some action on the flop with the goal of stealing the pot should a scary card hit the turn is a recipe for disaster and is something I see too frequently from decent players who made a few successful bluffs in their life and now think they can win every pot.

Bad times to do it are where the board is very draw heavy and the villain will almost surely have to call your raise to try and hit his draw - for one, you'll have to fire on the end so you are risking more, and for another reason, he will miss his draw, get to the river, and now possibly make a crying call with a weak hand because the pot has gotten so big. An exception to this idea is when you have showdown value yourself, now you aren't really bluff raising, so much as free showdown raising with a weak made hand.

A good example might be, you raise TT on the button, BB defends. Flop comes Q87 with two spades and you get checkraised. You call and the turn is a red ace - a free showdown raise here might be a good idea. It's possible villain will fold a Queen, its possible he has an 8 or 7 and/or a draw of some type, all of which you beat. And if you get reraised you have a very easy fold, and every now and then you'll nail a ten on the end and can value bet.

There are definitely situations where you should be bluffing on the big streets, but always try to have outs, and try to pick good opponents who have the ability to lay down a hand.

-DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

The 40 BOTE game has only been going because of the LAPC, it won't last. It has gone fairly consistently though for the last week but I haven't been up there in a few days so not sure of the status now. I always would play holdem first unless the game was awful or I was feeling like a change of pace, its my best game by far.

Your theory questions about those random games are really tough, I'm not sure I have any of the answers. I definitely see what you mean about badeucey with A234r badugi being the nuts being similar to stud hi/lo reg. but I suck at that game so probably wouldn't want to play a game with a similar idea! I don't think these games will be too popular, but certainly if you are able to play them you will 1) get action from gambooler types who see you as someone who will bet on anything, and 2) be stronger at poker theory and probably improve all your poker games just from playing well and thinking about new and weird games.

I think big bet games are all broken games for the most part, because the edge a good player has is so much more significant over the fish. A game like pot limit 7 card stud or something would quickly crush weak players and never last. PLO is a decent exception because the hand strengths are so close, but a very poor PLO player would get carved up quickly in a tough game. NL holdem is way worse, except that it's so popular these days the dead money never seems to dry up. There is a reason it was so difficult to find NL holdem cash games a few years ago, Mason's essays on this stuff being my guide since I wasn't really around to see it.

You are horrible at NL holdem because you learned limit first and you subconsciously do so many things that are correct in limit but cost you in NL. I'm the same way. Also, NL is boring and when you don't like doing something you don't do well at it. No clue when they will stop playing but I love the big NL players who come hang out in our "safe" 200/400 games or whatever while waiting or just as a change of pace.

-DeathDonkey

[MacGuyV]

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A decent time to "make a move" on the turn is when a scary card hits AND you have outs in case you get called on the turn. Blindly taking some action on the flop with the goal of stealing the pot should a scary card hit the turn is a recipe for disaster and is something I see too frequently from decent players who made a few successful bluffs in their life and now think they can win every pot.

Bad times to do it are where the board is very draw heavy and the villain will almost surely have to call your raise to try and hit his draw - for one, you'll have to fire on the end so you are risking more, and for another reason, he will miss his draw, get to the river, and now possibly make a crying call with a weak hand because the pot has gotten so big. An exception to this idea is when you have showdown value yourself, now you aren't really bluff raising, so much as free showdown raising with a weak made hand.

A good example might be, you raise TT on the button, BB defends. Flop comes Q87 with two spades and you get checkraised. You call and the turn is a red ace - a free showdown raise here might be a good idea. It's possible villain will fold a Queen, its possible he has an 8 or 7 and/or a draw of some type, all of which you beat. And if you get reraised you have a very easy fold, and every now and then you'll nail a ten on the end and can value bet.

There are definitely situations where you should be bluffing on the big streets, but always try to have outs, and try to pick good opponents who have the ability to lay down a hand.

-DeathDonkey

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Yeah the TT raise would be pretty standard for me. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the villian in that hand who bluff 3bets the Ace because he thinks his Tag opponent would wait till the river to raise in order to prevent folding a hand that's drawing nearly dead on the turn. Probably just outhinking myself as all the raise/fold posts in the shorthanded forums give me dangerous ideas [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Say you open J9 and a 30/20 Lagtag calls out of the BB, checkraises an 8744 turn: is a 3bet here completely retarded or do you even bet the turn the first time around?
Thanks

[DeathDonkey]

It might be right from time to time but I never really do this. More likely I call and bluff raise the river, but I don't do much of this craziness. I prefer to take passive lines and see showdowns, so if I got CRed on this board and had a good ace high, I'd sometimes call down. Or I'd check behind on the turn more frequently and call a river bet that's hopefully a bluff.

-DeathDonkey