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  #31  
Old 05-29-2006, 08:17 AM
tomdemaine tomdemaine is offline
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Default Re: Capital Punishment

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For those who do support it what % of false positives do you accept?
I'm still waiting for 18 answers of how many innocent people out of 100 you'd be happy with the government murdering in your name.
23
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  #32  
Old 05-29-2006, 08:19 AM
moorobot moorobot is offline
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Default Re: Capital Punishment

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This might apply to most normal people but definely applies to a small percentage of murderers and rapists. Most people that do that type of thing don't care about right and wrong.
Perhaps they don't at the time they commit the crime, but they generally seem to later (and possibly before the time of the crime):

Last time I checked this stat was in the 90s, but it is highly telling: 90% of men who commit a violent crime before the age of 25 never do so again.

One reason, probably the primary reason, is biological: males 'calm down' considerably as they age due to biological factors, and it really starts to set in right before 25 for most men.

Quote:
Whoever said that they should spend there time being forced to do simple tasks that benifit the country has a good point.
I agree with this for people who are in prison for life, at least. Perhaps the productivity could be used to fund part of the UBI .
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  #33  
Old 05-29-2006, 09:07 AM
top13 top13 is offline
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Default Re: Capital Punishment

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Facts and Figures on the Death Penalty

In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Viet Nam and the USA.

Use of the death penalty against child offenders
International human rights treaties prohibit anyone under 18 years old at the time of the crime being sentenced to death or executed. A small number of countries, however, continue to execute child offenders.
Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime China, Congo (Democratic Republic), Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18 in law, and Iran is reportedly in the process of doing so. The USA executed more child offenders than any other country (19 between 1990 and 2003).

Execution of the innocent
Since 1973, 122 prisoners have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. There were six such cases in 2004 and three up to December 2005.

The death penalty in the USA
Around 3,400 prisoners were under sentence of death as of 1 January 2006.
38 of the 50 US states provide for the death penalty in law. The death penalty is also provided under US federal military and civilian law.

The deterrence argument
Scientific studies have consistently failed to find convincing evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than other punishments. The most recent survey of research findings on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates, conducted for the United Nations in 1988 and updated in 2002, concluded: ". . .it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment."
Where did you get this?
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  #34  
Old 05-29-2006, 11:11 AM
Copernicus Copernicus is offline
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Default Re: Capital Punishment

Quote:
Quote:
Facts and Figures on the Death Penalty

In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Viet Nam and the USA.

Use of the death penalty against child offenders
International human rights treaties prohibit anyone under 18 years old at the time of the crime being sentenced to death or executed. A small number of countries, however, continue to execute child offenders.
Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime China, Congo (Democratic Republic), Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18 in law, and Iran is reportedly in the process of doing so. The USA executed more child offenders than any other country (19 between 1990 and 2003).

Execution of the innocent
Since 1973, 122 prisoners have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. There were six such cases in 2004 and three up to December 2005.

The death penalty in the USA
Around 3,400 prisoners were under sentence of death as of 1 January 2006.
38 of the 50 US states provide for the death penalty in law. The death penalty is also provided under US federal military and civilian law.

The deterrence argument
Scientific studies have consistently failed to find convincing evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than other punishments. The most recent survey of research findings on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates, conducted for the United Nations in 1988 and updated in 2002, concluded: ". . .it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment."
Where did you get this?

The bold is why I advocate torture. For someone deserving of the death penalty (child molesters, rapists, cop killers, terrorists), torture is a better deterrent than life or death. Given the choice of those two, I think death is slightly more feared than life in prison.

I guess html is disabled..attempted to bold:

: ". . .it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment."
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  #35  
Old 05-29-2006, 11:15 AM
bkholdem bkholdem is offline
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Default Re: Capital Punishment

Quote:
Quote:
This might apply to most normal people but definely applies to a small percentage of murderers and rapists. Most people that do that type of thing don't care about right and wrong.
Perhaps they don't at the time they commit the crime, but they generally seem to later (and possibly before the time of the crime):

Last time I checked this stat was in the 90s, but it is highly telling: 90% of men who commit a violent crime before the age of 25 never do so again.

One reason, probably the primary reason, is biological: males 'calm down' considerably as they age due to biological factors, and it really starts to set in right before 25 for most men.

Quote:
Whoever said that they should spend there time being forced to do simple tasks that benifit the country has a good point.
I agree with this for people who are in prison for life, at least. Perhaps the productivity could be used to fund part of the UBI .
It makes sense about the under 25 violence stat but as a counter point here is another one psychiatrists, et all use:

The best predictor of future violence is past violence.

How many chances of murder should someone get? We are not talking about the 1 or 2 barroom fights in age 21-25 when talking about violence and prison sir.
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  #36  
Old 05-29-2006, 11:40 AM
boracay boracay is offline
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Posts: 766
Default Re: Capital Punishment

first ask yourself what's your opinion about human rights in these countries:
- China
- Congo (Democratic Republic)
- Iran
- Nigeria
- Pakistan
- Saudi Arabia
- Yemen

then go two lines upwards.
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  #37  
Old 05-29-2006, 07:29 PM
nietzreznor nietzreznor is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Posts: 1,395
Default Re: Capital Punishment

[ QUOTE ]
To those against the death penalty-

How much a year per person does it cost for a person to be in jail?

Do you realize that the most vicious people are at the top of the social ladder in jail, thereby refuting the idea that life in prison is worse then the death penalty?

How can you both claim
1) life in prison is worse then death
2) you don't support the death penalty because it could lead to the death of innocent people

these two statements completely contradict each other to me. Maybe it's too late.

Borodog- Can you explain your point a little more?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

But some of us who are opposed to the death penalty are also, in general, opposed to prisons.
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  #38  
Old 05-29-2006, 09:25 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Performing miracles.
Posts: 11,182
Default Re: Capital Punishment

[ QUOTE ]
To those against the death penalty-

How much a year per person does it cost for a person to be in jail?

Do you realize that the most vicious people are at the top of the social ladder in jail, thereby refuting the idea that life in prison is worse then the death penalty?

How can you both claim
1) life in prison is worse then death
2) you don't support the death penalty because it could lead to the death of innocent people

these two statements completely contradict each other to me. Maybe it's too late.

Borodog- Can you explain your point a little more?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good question. Basically it comes down to the fact that when a person is still alive, a mistaken conviction can be overturned.
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  #39  
Old 05-29-2006, 10:26 PM
Rev Sauerbalz Rev Sauerbalz is offline
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 44
Default Re: Capital Punishment

I am against CP.

My reasoning may seem too simple-minded to those with different world views. I think these contradictory world views may be irreconcilable.

Well, here goes:

1. Killing the perpetrator doesn't mend the damage done. So, it doesn't help solve anything that's already happended.

2. Killing the perpetrator doesn't add any appreciable safety margin to free citizens compared to life in maximum security prison. So, it doesn't really protect the public.

3. Thus, the only real reasons to kill would be revenge, cost savings, or to protect other inmates and guards.

4. Revenge is no good reason to kill, so I'll dismiss that as feeding a terrible human quality.

5. Killing may save societal costs. However, maybe a smarter prison system would be more effective in utilizing the prison workforce in a more self-sustaining way. For example, requiring inmates to work at some labor in order to receive additional benefits could have great benefits--productive work that defrays costs and a more stable, contented prison poulation. Unfortunately, many with the desire to punish will not like this option because they don't want inmates to lead a productive (even if confined) life--they went perpetual suffering or death even if no benefit to the rest of society.

6. Killing to protect other inmates or guards seems unnecessary considering more practical means of controlling prison populations. The slight risk of killing an innocent person seems to outweigh the slight risk of another inmate or prison guard.

Thus, given this train of thought, I can only come up to the conclusion that I am against CP.
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  #40  
Old 05-30-2006, 12:26 AM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Default Re: Capital Punishment

FWIW, I think killing for revenge is for more "moral" than killing to save a buck.
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