[5/10] 44 on the button, SB 3-bets. Free showdown raise on turn

[yourface]

I agree on all points

stox seems to love the FSDR though

[sharpie]

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I must be way too weak/tight in these spots.

So a good line would be to call turn, and call river if it isn't an A/K/Q that's not a club? Maybe fold a non-club 9 as well?

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Depends on the TAG. Would he 3 barrel KQ? Would he valuebet AK? Against me you could fold the river UI.

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Didn't we just discuss that if you had AK here, betting was best OOP on the river UI?

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On a more raggy board I think a river bet is usually best, here I think it depends how calldowny villainy is, and what he peels the flop with, and whether he'll bluff if we check. I think most good TAGs will cap AQ/AJ PF and won't peel Ax where x<9 on the flop, if this is the case there isn't much for him to calldown with. You could argue he won't bluff if we check since it looks like we're showing down, but we could have KQ/K9s and he's getting a decent price, so I don't think it's clear.

Having said all this, I'm calling down without a good read that he won't 3 barrel worse hands here, and I really wouldn't trust many TAGs here.

[Oink]

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To be honest I think many 2+2:ers are exaggerating the risk of getting 3-balled by a worse hand if he plays standard TAG style.Personally I think that risk is really small.

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I agree but thats not the issue at all! The problem with raise/folding is that when villain 3-bets he will have a hand without a club a good portion of the time. This leads to hero folding a possible 11 outer in a 10BB pot for 1BB. Thats not good poker sir. DONT FSD RAISE IF YOU HAVE OUTS!!

[GMMigge]

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I hope I'm not alone in this, but the more I read about it, the less real-world applicable FSDR seems to be to 6max lhe. Having read this thread and the linked ones, it seems that none of the assumptions necessary for the play to have value hold true.

- We will get three bet by worse hands with some frequency, especially if we are game selecting well.

- Aside from VERY narrow ranges, we will not fold out better hands (eg, 66-99 on this board. Maybe.)

- Villains will often bluff bet a missed draw on the river.

It seems to me that OP's play only has value if he has a read and plans on VBing a 'blankish' river, of which there are not many (J, T, 6, 5, 3, 2 non clubs). Am I missing something?

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I agree on all points

stox seems to love the FSDR though

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The thing is, the term "the free showdown raise" is often used in the wrong sense. Often what one means when you say that you raised for a free showdown is that you raised with the intention of taking a free showdown in case villain calls the turn bet and checks the river.

So really, it's just often a misunderstanding. Often you raise the turn, fully prepared to call a raise and then either calling the river or folding the river. That is not a "free showdown raise", but often with the intention of taking a free showdown if villain plays accordingly. And then after the hand and the player talks about the hand afterwards, he says "And then on the turn I raised for a free showdown and look what happened!", and thus misusing the expression since he actually did _not_ raise for a free showdown and hence a misunderstanding has occurred and people start flaming him.

This little rant has nothing to do with my original hand though, since at the time I really _was_ raising for a free showdown, and getting 3-bet would have been the right way to punish me for my mistake, since I originally planned to fold to a 3-bet and that could have been a disaster as well.

[Apanage]

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To be honest I think many 2+2:ers are exaggerating the risk of getting 3-balled by a worse hand if he plays standard TAG style.Personally I think that risk is really small.

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I agree but thats not the issue at all!

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I´m always glad when you agree Oink.But not every post I make is directed to you.Some posters do always fear being 3-bet by worse hands when they raise turns against TAG:s.
I would never ever 3-bet (If I was villain) the turn with a worse hand in the hand posted.Maybe I´m not good or tricky enough but let´s face it most of us aren´t that daring.
So why would a TAG that seems to play similar style as us reason in a different way?
Many many posts in this forum often contradicts themself. When we have a villain TAG we suddenly expect moves from him that we would condemn if he was hero in the hand.That is especially the case in different Bet/fold or Bet/Raise/fold scenarios.


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The problem with raise/folding is that when villain 3-bets he will have a hand without a club a good portion of the time. This leads to hero folding a possible 11 outer in a 10BB pot for 1BB. Thats not good poker sir. DONT FSD RAISE IF YOU HAVE OUTS!!

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Well we always going to have outs.We are just going to have few or many of them.
Folding a possible 11 outer is surely a mistake.The million dollar question just is how many times are we doing that.
Hands 3-betting that are ahead of us but that we have enough outs against can really just only be non-club trip hands.And if he is a weak tight like me I´m not even sure that he always will 3-bet trips when it is 3 clubs on board and he is OOP.

Just like the OP I use the term FSD when my intention is to check the river behind.That does not mean that I´m always going to fold to a raise.So in this hand I could sometimes think of calling his 3-bet and call river if a club falls.
All of that being said I still probably would just call down. But I don´t think it is such a big difference in EV between raising the turn and calling down.