Official Barry Bonds Countdown Thread

[DrewDevil]

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He admitted taking a substance that he thought was flaxseed oil but was actually steroids.


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Correction: A substance the authors BELIEVED to be steroids based on their interpretation of circumstantial evidence. Key distinction.

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even though no one has ever disputed that it was in fact steroids. Not even Bonds.


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Didn't you say at one time you are studying or have studied law?

You do realize that the defense does not get to present evidence at grand jury to refute the prosecutions evidence?

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Also, steroids were banned from MLB by commissioner Fay Vincent in 1991, though there was no testing until recently. So using steroids has been against the rules and therefore cheating since 1991.

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Correction: "illegal drugs, including illegal steroids."

Call it semantics, but lawfully prescribed steroids, not to mention HGH which is not a steroid, were not against the rules of the game.

And considering that Bonds has not been allowed to present his side yet....who knows what sort of surprises you're in for.... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Redbean, please assert and/or present compelling evidence that Bonds has never used ILLEGAL steroids.

[not holding breath]

Edit: never mind, you're just going to ctrl+v the crap about never testing positive, and act like that is concrete proof, while continuing to nitpick all the opposing evidence. Whatever.

[hauchen]

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
So we've firmly established 3 things

1. RedBean is an awesome

2. Bonds was awesome prior to using steroids, which has not been proven, but he gets crucified more than proven steroid users and he still would have been awesome without it, but instead became the best or second best player in baseball history.

3. MLB and baseball is awesome in general except when people try to extrapolate to mean something more than it is.

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FYP
See you guys later I'm not posting anymore.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He admitted taking a substance that he thought was flaxseed oil but was actually steroids.


[/ QUOTE ]

Correction: A substance the authors BELIEVED to be steroids based on their interpretation of circumstantial evidence. Key distinction.

[ QUOTE ]
even though no one has ever disputed that it was in fact steroids. Not even Bonds.


[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't you say at one time you are studying or have studied law?

You do realize that the defense does not get to present evidence at grand jury to refute the prosecutions evidence?

[ QUOTE ]

Also, steroids were banned from MLB by commissioner Fay Vincent in 1991, though there was no testing until recently. So using steroids has been against the rules and therefore cheating since 1991.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correction: "illegal drugs, including illegal steroids."

Call it semantics, but lawfully prescribed steroids, not to mention HGH which is not a steroid, were not against the rules of the game.

And considering that Bonds has not been allowed to present his side yet....who knows what sort of surprises you're in for.... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Redbean, please assert and/or present compelling evidence that Bonds has never used ILLEGAL steroids.

[not holding breath]

Edit: never mind, you're just going to ctrl+v the crap about never testing positive. Whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's impossible to prove a negative. I can't believe how much you suck at logic in this thread. I'm done with it.

[RedBean]

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RedBean, what will you do if the results are released and it's proven that Bonds used steroids beyond the shadow of a doubt?

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If that were the case, then I would make the determination at that time based on it being fact. The facts would be known, and would be indisputable.

But as I haven't jumped the gun and made any pre-judgements or spewed vitriol to the contrary for the past 5 years, thankfully I wouldn't have to eat any words or apologize for any wrongdoing as a result of reserving judgement until the facts were actually known.

Along the same lines, however, what will you do if the opposite is the case? What will the media do?

That would be an awful lot to have been wrong about for the past 5+ years.

See what I did there? Do you see what I did right there?

[CharlieDontSurf]

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So we've firmly established 3 things

1. RedBean is an awesome

2. Bonds was awesome prior to using steroids, which has not been proven, but he gets crucified more than proven steroid users and he still would have been awesome without it, but instead became the best or second best player in baseball history.

3. MLB and baseball is awesome in general except when people try to extrapolate to mean something more than it is.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP
See you guys later I'm not posting anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is like the 10th time you've posted that

[NozeCandy]

I'm not going to bother quoting huge ass posts or anything, but someone quoted my post and said that tons of steroids are prescribed legally every day. Yeah, ok dude. Even if Bonds was taking these legally prescribed meds (doubtful), did he have a prescription for it? Ok, so he was breaking the law either way. GG.

[Case Closed]

Wow, on Jim Rome they are accusing Aaron being paid big money to sell out and film last night's message.

[vhawk01]

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I'm still hoping I can get someone to respond from the "This record is steroid-enhanced" camp to clarify that statement a bit. It is one of those comments that seems logical and rational if you only think about it for like ten seconds, but is actually incredibly stupid and incorrect when you think about it for eleven or more. I hear it a lot with regards to modern equipment and weight training, and it is just as stupid there.

This record was not steroid-enhanced. It might be tainted, because thats a subjective, public opinion type deal, but it wasn't enhanced.

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I don't understand what you are saying.

Steroids absolutely enhance the effectiveness of the home run hitter. Are you seriously disputing THAT?

And please, don't trot out the strawman "Steroids don't help you connect with the baseball," because no one's ever claimed that they do. They just make the ball go farther and faster when you connect.

Also, weight training and superior nutrition are not against the rules, which is how sentient beings distinguish between them and steroids on the culpability scale.

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You don't get the point. The only way you can make the argument that this record is steroid-enhanced is if you somehow believe ONLY Barry, or at least Barry and a very small minority of other players, are on steroids. This is obviously ridiculous, and is just as silly as claiming Bonds never juiced.

The point of the weight lifting comparison is that people also foolishly list weight-training and workout regimens as an added benefit that todays player has. What they forget is that this added benefit helps ALL players, hitters, pitchers, everyone, so it isn't an individual benefit. Barry may have been aided by steroids, but so were most of the pitchers he faced. Why do they help him more than hurt him?

The record is small-park-enhanced, its nature-of-todays-game-enhanced, its small-modern-strikezone-enhanced, but it is NOT steroid-enhanced. Its neutral with regards to steroids.

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He admitted taking a substance that he thought was flaxseed oil but was actually steroids.


[/ QUOTE ]

Correction: A substance the authors BELIEVED to be steroids based on their interpretation of circumstantial evidence. Key distinction.

[ QUOTE ]
even though no one has ever disputed that it was in fact steroids. Not even Bonds.


[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't you say at one time you are studying or have studied law?

You do realize that the defense does not get to present evidence at grand jury to refute the prosecutions evidence?

[ QUOTE ]

Also, steroids were banned from MLB by commissioner Fay Vincent in 1991, though there was no testing until recently. So using steroids has been against the rules and therefore cheating since 1991.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correction: "illegal drugs, including illegal steroids."

Call it semantics, but lawfully prescribed steroids, not to mention HGH which is not a steroid, were not against the rules of the game.

And considering that Bonds has not been allowed to present his side yet....who knows what sort of surprises you're in for.... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Redbean, please assert and/or present compelling evidence that Bonds has never used ILLEGAL steroids.

[not holding breath]

Edit: never mind, you're just going to ctrl+v the crap about never testing positive. Whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's impossible to prove a negative. I can't believe how much you suck at logic in this thread. I'm done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't ask for proof, I asked for evidence. Big difference. And Redbean has basically discounted anything that isn't absolute proof from the other perspective. I just want a little evidence to support his position.

The problem, of course, is that Redbean knows Bonds is dirty, just like every other carbon-based life form who knows anything about the subject. That's why he can only attack the semantics and the technicalities of the evidence, and not the actual question.

Never in this thread has Redbean argued that Bonds is clean.