KK OOP - Paired Flop

[Thrahl]

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Why are you checking this flop?

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Because I don't want to fold worse hands and I want to get to showdown.

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I certainly hope this isn't your standard line for Big PP because if it is your missing Tons of value. Why let villain see a cheap showdown?

Bet for value
Bet to protect your hand

[Dave I]

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Keeping worse hands in is fine, but giving them free or cheap chances to outdraw you and an opportunity to bluff you off the river is throwing money away. Against a very aggressive opponent, check-calling/check-raising the flop is fine, but if you check the turn and river as well you will have no idea where you stand when he pushes AI with his 55-TT or A4 or whatever he has.

If you lead this flop they won't be giving you credit for a Q. Pocket pairs will call along and AK might get suspicious enough to stick around.

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I just think betting or raising lets better hands call/raise or worse hands fold. My thoughts were if we bet and he calls we still dont know anything. Now we have to c/f the turn. If he raises we have to fold. My plan was to c/c the whole way unless an A fell. But, the river push threw that off a little.

[Dave I]

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I certainly hope this isn't your standard line for Big PP because if it is your missing Tons of value. Why let villain see a cheap showdown?

Bet for value
Bet to protect your hand

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Of course not. But, there's nothing to protect against.

[ymu]

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I just think betting or raising lets better hands call/raise or worse hands fold. My thoughts were if we bet and he calls we still dont know anything. Now we have to c/f the turn. If he raises we have to fold. My plan was to c/c the whole way unless an A fell. But, the river push threw that off a little.

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This is the kind of thinking you need when deciding to bet or check on the river. You need to have a good idea where you stand much earlier than this - the idea is to get money in when you're ahead and get out cheap when you're behind, which means finding out asap. Check/calling tells you nothing about how strong he is - if you play it like this, you need to call any river bet because he has no idea where you are either.

[ymu]

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I certainly hope this isn't your standard line for Big PP because if it is your missing Tons of value. Why let villain see a cheap showdown?

Bet for value
Bet to protect your hand

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Of course not. But, there's nothing to protect against.

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Nothing to protect against? What if he had AsKs and picked up the flush draw on the turn. Or 99 hitting the full house on the river. Would you call the river if it was an A?

If there's nothing to protect against, why do you even wonder about whether to call this river bet - your hand is invincible, right?

[uminchu]

this hand is way too strong to check the flop here, You only get action from someone with JJ TT AA or a queen, and all the smaller pairs say 99 88 will bet this board if you check so you are essentially giving away money by not betting the flop and re eval on the turn, but im porbably leading turn and folding to a raise there

[Thrahl]

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I certainly hope this isn't your standard line for Big PP because if it is your missing Tons of value. Why let villain see a cheap showdown?

Bet for value
Bet to protect your hand

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Of course not. But, there's nothing to protect against.

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Because nothing ever beats an over pair right?

[Dave I]

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Nothing to protect against? What if he had AsKs and picked up the flush draw on the turn. Or 99 hitting the full house on the river. Would you call the river if it was an A?.... - your hand is invincible, right?

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Because nothing ever beats an over pair right?

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I never said or meant to imply my hand was invincible. I meant there are NO draws on this flop. Am I really worried about protecting against a backdoor flush or a two outer? This is as WA/WB as it gets.

Protection is not an issue in this hand at all. I want value when I am ahead and I want to lose the least when behind and hopefully get to showdown. If I bet or raise I still know nothing if he just calls and I have to c/f. If he raises I have to fold what could be the best hand.

Yes, I fold if an A comes. I bet if he checks behind at anytime.

I used to bet this flop almost 100% of the time. But, I was getting a fold or I was crushed. I took a different line here and I think a flop check is correct.

Betting the turn and river is debatable, but I didn't mind handing over initiative. I realize I may have to make a tough decision later in the hand, I don't mind that either. Granted, I didn't expect a huge overbet.

FWIW - I also think given my line and the way the hand went down the river is a call. Although, a little tough to make.

[ama0330]

I think that your flop check is okay but you have to make a stand on the turn, particularly given that there are two spades on the board now and he's bet out twice for just less than the pot - not good signs. I'd lead for 3/4 pot. The reason you have to do this is that the more streets you check, the wider your opponents range gets. He could just be making a play at your weakness and particularly on the turn when he still bets out you have literally no idea whether he is value betting or bluffing you.

You have to balance "extracting maximum value" with "giving worse hands a free card (infinite odds) to improve". You can't just check every street then push the river. Check calling the flop then leading the turn is quite a threatening line an lets your opponent know that you are not going to be messed with.

You basically have no choice but to fold the river because you were too passive on the previous streets and therefore you have no information about your opponents holding.

[Sir Winalot]

Grunch:

I would lead the flop and fold to a raise.

Fold turn and definitely fold river. You're not beating anything but air here.