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#42
08-27-2007, 02:52 PM
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Re: I didn\'t want to build a pot oop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] We really don't need to bet this flop. I really thinking checking this flop > betting this flop [/ QUOTE ] Villain bets flop, we fold? I'm part of the "check this flop in position" camp [/ QUOTE ] villain bets flop, we call [/ QUOTE ] What's the turn line then? [/ QUOTE ] depends on the turn. maybe c/c, maybe lead, maybe c/f 
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#43
08-27-2007, 02:57 PM
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Re: I didn\'t want to build a pot oop
how does it matter? Assuming no A or J falls, what cards would make you c/c, what would make you lead, and what would make you c/f?
It just seems to weak and giving up tons of value to me. No thinking player is going to let you get to showdown by c/c one street. By c/c the flop you pretty much guarantee that you'll have to c/c a second bet at some point, or you just end up folding afterwards...both of which suck imo
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#44
08-27-2007, 03:16 PM
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Re: I didn\'t want to build a pot oop
[ QUOTE ]
how does it matter? Assuming no A or J falls, what cards would make you c/c, what would make you lead, and what would make you c/f? It just seems to weak and giving up tons of value to me. No thinking player is going to let you get to showdown by c/c one street. By c/c the flop you pretty much guarantee that you'll have to c/c a second bet at some point, or you just end up folding afterwards...both of which suck imo [/ QUOTE ] Why do you have to assume that villain will take a line that will put us in the worst possible spot. Most of thet time it won't go bet-bet when you check the flop, because most villains will not double barrel without a king.
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#45
08-27-2007, 03:20 PM
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Re: I didn\'t want to build a pot oop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] making a hand play out easier should have absolutely 0 impact on your decision making process [/ QUOTE ] thats so not true...its obviously not the only factor but good players are good at least partly because they know how to avoid really tough decisions where it is easy to make a mistake. [/ QUOTE ] and great players don't care about how difficult a decision is, they just make the right play. there's a difference between being good and being great. and the vast majority of this forum has no interest in progressing past being "good" i dont mean that to be insulting, but ppl are lazy and dumb, and luckily you can still be good at poker being lazy and dumb, but you will never be great.
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#46
08-27-2007, 04:09 PM
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Re: I didn\'t want to build a pot oop
[ QUOTE ]
Those who are advocating a flop bet...can you expand on your reasoning why? Is it a value bet? If so, are we expecting a call from 88/1010/Jx type hands? Arent we more likely to get a call from those hands on the turn/river if we check the flop? [/ QUOTE ] This is the main point of the thread and basically sums up why I think this is a well played hand. We'll get a lot more value by checking and betting the turn and/or river by either inducing a bluff or by getting more value from Jx and 9x. To those who say that we are revealing our hand as marginal or weak this is true, but most opponents aren't going to recognize this pattern of checking the flop OOP when we have a decent hand with showdown value but not enough to bet purely for value on multiple streets. I believe that vs most opponents we'll get more value by checking the flop and "showing weakness" than by betting. Obviously this will change as our opponent changes, but I don't see keeping the pot small and inducing bluffs in this situation as a bad play. In fact I think it's the best possible play and one I make often.
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#47
08-27-2007, 05:13 PM
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Re: I didn\'t want to build a pot oop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] making a hand play out easier should have absolutely 0 impact on your decision making process [/ QUOTE ] thats so not true...its obviously not the only factor but good players are good at least partly because they know how to avoid really tough decisions where it is easy to make a mistake. [/ QUOTE ] and great players don't care about how difficult a decision is, they just make the right play. there's a difference between being good and being great. and the vast majority of this forum has no interest in progressing past being "good" i dont mean that to be insulting, but ppl are lazy and dumb, and luckily you can still be good at poker being lazy and dumb, but you will never be great. [/ QUOTE ] im not insulted evg, but "great" players still plan their hands to avoid difficult decisions. they might not even do it on purpose but they'll often innately take the line that is not just the most profitable but the easiest to play... why? because the most profitable line usually is the line that allows for the easiest decisions. they set up the hand so they don't have to wonder if their opponent is bluffing or not, etc. any time someone uses the wa/wb line it gives them easy decisions. this isnt an example of that since there are a lot of draws, but betting the flop and inflating the pot OOP makes it a lot harder to make the correct decisions in the hand, meaning you will get outplayed a lot. i guess thats what i mean by setting the hand up for easy decisions...not necessarily pussying out because i dont wanna make a decision, but allowing myself to make better decisions because the pot is smaller... anyway i dont really think im making myself clear, and i dont really think we're even arguing about quite the same thing but i'll stop derailing the thread.
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#48
08-27-2007, 05:28 PM
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Re: I didn\'t want to build a pot oop
poker actions aren't "right" or "wrong". they are rated on a continuous spectrum, ranging from very +EV to very -EV and passing through neutral.
if you have a difficult decision, its a decision to choose between actions that have a blurry EV, that is impossible to precisely determine. thus, the most +EV line is arguably the line that presents the easiest decisions. The EV of each action is clear, or at least more finely focused. Why would we prefer a line which presents actions that we think is +EV, but unclearly so and based on estimated or guessed or assumed parameters, to a line which presents actions that are precise and clear? There are exceptions to every rule (such as samo's post a while ago about turning your weak hand face up to a bluffy player to call down for stacks), but in this instance I think they are few and far between. There is at least one thread in HSNL where a few respected posters made claims that creating clear decisions is very very good. I think one was ElD. I don't have time to search right now, maybe later. It would probably serve me well to comb the best-of thread again anyway.
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#49
08-27-2007, 05:35 PM
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Re: I didn\'t want to build a pot oop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] im glad ppl arent as cbet happy as they used to be. nh [/ QUOTE ] Do you not think that cbetting a lot makes life difficult for villain? Not cbetting a lot seems to offer a lot of free cards, and makes it more obvious with top hands. Say a flop is 552. With most hands you would advocate checking, yet if you have AA you are making it very easy for people to get away easily if you would normally check. [/ QUOTE ] cbetting doesn't necessarily make it harder for villain to play, but it definitely makes it harder for us to get to showdown cheaply. allowing free cards in tiny pots isn't really a big deal. Yes, our range isn't top hands. Fortunately, villain's range is also wide open.
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#50
08-27-2007, 05:39 PM
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Re: I didn\'t want to build a pot oop
[ QUOTE ]
protecting your equity; you don't know what villains bluffing frequencies are. [/ QUOTE ] I think a pretty safe default is that they are low. [ QUOTE ] you have a good hand, definitely ahead of his calling range on this flop. you want to get vaue from these in case scare cards hit. [/ QUOTE ] and no matter how a bet goes in on the flop, the turn is hard to play, so why not try for check/check? as to getting value from draws cuz the board is wet, fine, but you also lose value to a king, and a king has you in a lot worse shape than you a draw. same tough decision if you think about double barreling.
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