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#21
08-30-2007, 04:09 AM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Hand 2 is a pretty obvious bet on all streets until we have the worst hand. Not sure why you would even post a hand this obvious. [/ QUOTE ] It's not really obvious though. Lots of people in this thread are saying bet/bet/bet for #1 expecting villain to fold TPWK but then want to bet/bet/bet [/ QUOTE ] exactly. cant have it both ways... we need a way to alter our line, or bet sizing, or both, on the river (when our hand is either good, or not good) 
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#22
08-30-2007, 04:16 AM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Hand 2 is a pretty obvious bet on all streets until we have the worst hand. Not sure why you would even post a hand this obvious. [/ QUOTE ] It's not really obvious though. Lots of people in this thread are saying bet/bet/bet for #1 expecting villain to fold TPWK but then want to bet/bet/bet for value in hand #2. [/ QUOTE ] They are not necessarily related. For example, just because trying to take KT to valuetown with two pair is the best line, doesn't mean that taking this line with air or a draw is bad or even not optimal. That's like saying since the optimal line with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on a 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board is often times to raise the flop when faced with a bet, on the contrary is a bad spot to run a bluff. That's simply not true.
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#23
08-30-2007, 04:20 AM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
Yeah I realize that in reality there can be some crossover. Bobbo asked for the optimal lines though, and I find it pretty unlikely that the line which optimizes fold equity is the same line that maximizes value.
Edit: Your example isn't really a fair analogy as the raise with 88 there is both for protection and value against a range and not a specific, weak hand. If we knew villain had say A5 on that board, raising the flop is the line likely to get the least value.
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#24
08-30-2007, 04:20 AM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
If you shove both hands, your playing pretty close to game theoritically right!
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#25
08-30-2007, 04:21 AM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
[ QUOTE ]
It's not really obvious though. Lots of people in this thread are saying bet/bet/bet for #1 expecting villain to fold TPWK but then want to bet/bet/bet for value in hand #2. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah but, in hand 2, even if we assume he's folding TPWK to a river shove every time...it's still obviously correct to make that bet (assuming we're still ahead). Now if you think bet/bet/bet isn't the best way to extract that's a different story...but I can't think of a better line. In hand 1 we can also go bet/bet/shove because we *should* have some FE and are still 45/55 to hit to make up for the times he snaps us off.
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#26
08-30-2007, 04:21 AM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
What you SSNL pros need to understand to beating MSNL and above is that the key in these situations is to put your opponent to a decision for all his chips. Sometimes he'll fold the best hand, sometimes he'll call with worse. Just get out that bible and pray to the lords that he does the wrong scenario in each case.
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#27
08-30-2007, 04:24 AM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but, in hand 2, even if we assume he's folding TPWK to a river shove every time...it's still obviously correct to make that bet (assuming we're still ahead). [/ QUOTE ] Well I agree, I just find it unlikely that bet/bet/bet is the most profitable line for both a bluff and for value in a vacuum. My default would be to bet 3 streets for both, but I give Bobbo enough credit to think that I must be missing something in these examples.
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#28
08-30-2007, 04:25 AM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
3-barreling both
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#30
08-30-2007, 07:05 AM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
[ QUOTE ]
If you shove both hands, your playing pretty close to game theoritically right! [/ QUOTE ] Given that we have perfect information, and our opponent doesn't, won't we make more money by playing this exploitively rather than game-theory optimally? Btw, in hand 1 I have no idea where you guys get the impression that an unknown is folding TP to 3 barrels. [ QUOTE ] In hand 1 we can also go bet/bet/shove because we *should* have some FE and are still 45/55 to hit to make up for the times he snaps us off. [/ QUOTE ] That "*should*" is a really big "if". Sure, if we have any fold equity, then b/b/b is +EV. But maybe it's not maximally EV.
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