2/4 Stud High- 554

[Jeff76]

Usually I don't play these hands for a raise, but I thought I would since diamonds were live, my straight cards were OK, and it looked to be a multi way pot that maybe it could be a profitable hand. I hated getting jammed on 4th, but I figured since I caught a diamond I had to at least see 5th.

Bad?

7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (6.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___folds
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls

[Bartholow]

Yeah, just fold 3rd. Small pairs aren't very good in multiway pots, even with the straight flush kicker.

[CJC]

Hello,

I really don't like the way this hand was played at all.
In a bigger game it would be really atrocious...

Cold calling bets and raises in stud is a sure way to lose your bankroll.

I don't mind you necessarily playing your holding... although I do mind that you didn't try to get the pot heads up or at least shorthanded. a pair of fives in a 5 way pot isn't going to win very much.

Regards,

CJ

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind you necessarily playing your holding... although I do mind that you didn't try to get the pot heads up or at least shorthanded. a pair of fives in a 5 way pot isn't going to win very much.

[/ QUOTE ]Great- thanks for the feedback. I felt like this was pretty gross, but sometimes I try new things and I really have no idea what I'm doing. That's when I post and get feedback from the experts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

(I ended up winning an enormous pot, so I posted this in effort to not be results oriented)

[Andy B]

Great to see you posting again, CJ. There are plenty of times you can and should call full bets/raises on third street. Of course that's mostly with drawing hands. Here, I think raising on third is worse than calling. Most of the time, if someone has called $1, he's going to call another $3. I'm not saying it's right--I'm just telling it like it is. So you're building a big, multi-way pot with a crap hand. If this were going to be heads-up, calling or raising would be less terrible, but folding would still be better.

Having called third, I think calling one bet and then the next is OK, but you certainly wouldn't call two bets cold. This is one problem with playing a dog like 554.

[CJC]

Hi Andy....

Nice to be back....

I don't disagree with you about calling with the drawing hands and such....

However...
If i am reading this converter thing correctly ( and we all know i am not an online junky).. hero cold called with the position RIGHT AFTER the initial raiser with a pair of fives. My opinion is if he wanted to play the holding (which may or may not be right) he should have re-raised forcing all the other players to cold call 2 bets. Here he didn't and ended up with a five way pot, because as is standard in low limit games... everyone else called. (as you mentioned)... However in my experience when it gets to 2 bets... many players actually start to think and you may end up with the favorable short handed situation.

If I am going to play a small pair with small kicker I want the situation in one of two ways....

1) Heads -up
2) Everyone (or at the least 6 players) in the pot... (obviously for pot odds)........................
Which again if i am reading this converter thing correctly... hero couldn't have known given his position.

and some people don't think poisition makes a difference in Stud. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Just my 3 cents...

great to chat woth you Andy...

CJ

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
2) Everyone (or at the least 6 players) in the pot... (obviously for pot odds)........................
Which again if i am reading this converter thing correctly... hero couldn't have known given his position.

[/ QUOTE ]FYI, 2 players had already called before the raise, and in this particular structure no one is ever going to call and then fold to a raise (since both the initial call and the re-raise are 1/2 a bet). I was certain we were going to have 4 to the flop, if not 5 (since the bring in will often call here as well).

Not say the call was correct- just that I believe I had a reasonable expectation of a multiway pot.

Anyway- thanks again for the feedback. Hearing how you approach these hands helps me more than you probably realize.

[CJC]

Hi,

you don't want 4 or 5 players though... that's the absolute last thing you want... In my posts above I explain that you want it heads-up or with (basically) all.

When you have excellent re-raising position as you did.. even with the first 2 limpers they will often fold when it is 2 bets back to them.... (but often call when it is only one... which happened)

My whole point to my posts was.. that
1) the hand was much much better off playing shorthanded if it was going to be played
2) There was opportunity to attempt to get shorthanded and even best-case heads-up
3) 4 or 5 way isn't what you want with small pairs
a) you will most likely be outdrawn w/o getting correct price
b) when i said play them with most eveyone in.. you then most often are geting good enough price to try and hit perfect
4) cold calling completions and raises (often) is not a winning way to stud


This hand example is actually a very good one for new stud players to study. It is a common situation in stud... and one that has to be handled differently depending on the circumstances... and it is VERY important to understand what to do in order to be a winning stud player.

honestly, I think this hand should have been folded from the start...

I would have played it if my other needed cards were live... then I would have raised.


Regards,
CJ

[SweetLuckyMe]

That's a fold. The hand is simply a money loser on all streets. I can't envision one scenario where a middle position call with that hand is correct. Calling when you're behind is what fish do in stud.

If you're hell bent on playing junk at least reraise it on 3rd to give yourself a better chance of winning the hand.

[Jeff76]

OK, so I was re-reading through 7CS4AP and came across the paragraph that provoked me to call here- it's the first full paragraph on page 45. Here the authors state you can call a raise with a small live pair and straight flush kicker if you anticipate a multiway pot.

So did I missapply the text here in some way?

I'm not hellbent on playing junk; it's just that since my bible tells me these hands can be profitable I'd like to understand how- gaining some experience with them is what I was trying to do here. I'd like to learn how to be a better player and not miss opportunities if hands like this can be profitable multiway, and the only way I'm going to learn is by getting out there and try some stuff. If that means a few misapplications along the way, I'm fine with that (it's only money [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ), but I'd like to understand what the author's had in mind for playing these hands if this wasn't it.