Razz-caution or coward?

[Praxising]

Ever since I went broke and had to reload, I think I've gotten awfully wimpy. I used to be too aggro, I think. Not sure if I went too far the other way or am being reasonably cautious. Need to be yelled at by better players, please. I just sat down at this table and never saw these players before.

Razz ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.20 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.60 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.60 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises

River - (8.60 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___

Total pot: (8.60 BB)






Razz ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (4.10 SB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street - (2.05 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

6th Street - (4.05 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (6.05 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___[/b]

Total pot: (6.05 BB)

[blumpkin]

you probably went broke from your consistently poor 4th street calls and the compounding effects thereof

[BH2O]

Hand #1 was that really a bad call on 4th? Now on 5th when you are drawing to an 8 and he looks to have a made 8 and drawing to a 7 I can understand the fold.

[kolotoure]

4th in the 1st hand seems pretty bad to me

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
you probably went broke from your consistently poor 4th street calls and the compounding effects thereof

[/ QUOTE ]LOL! I actually went broke from my A23s being followed by 4KK and the compounding effects of tilt, thereafter!

As to all the 4th st commentary - if was playing 5/10 I'd have folded the brick. Or even 1/2, most likely. But at .50/1 on Stars - even not knowing the players - it's about 50/50 they have a brick in the hole. HU I always call unless I know the player. So, I agree with everyone, but not in this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1 was that really a bad call on 4th? Now on 5th when you are drawing to an 8 and he looks to have a made 8 and drawing to a 7 I can understand the fold.

[/ QUOTE ] I didn't fold. I thought my play was bad because I either didn't bet or didn't raise. There was never any chance of me folding at this limit in this spot.

[MikeBandy]

Masculine pronouns refer to both genders.

[ QUOTE ]
if was playing 5/10 I'd have folded the brick. Or even 1/2, most likely. But at .50/1 on Stars - even not knowing the players - it's about 50/50 they have a brick in the hole.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hand One:

You make a good point in stating that the player may have a brick in the hole. When he called on third street, he knew that he'd have only one opponent, whom he hoped to outdraw on fourth street. In that case, he'd have the better board. Even if you called after you got a bad draw, he'd have equalized.

Even so, I'd normally have folded on fourth. After all, according to your guesstimate, there's a 50% chance that he's ahead. Also, you don't have much invested in the hand. Why chase?

Hand Two:

The hand was played well. I'd expect to win it on the river, but I wouldn't have bet or raised.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Even so, I'd normally have folded on fourth. After all, according to your guesstimate, there's a 50% chance that he's ahead. Also, you don't have much invested in the hand. Why chase?

[/ QUOTE ]There were a few things - one that we might both have a brick, as I said before, and his just calling the completion on 3rd. And if he had a brick, I thought I would have the better of it. It wasn't like I had 68A, which I would have folded. Then there was the Ace out for us both, but also there were three paint cards and no one else came in. It's .50/1, and three-four players to 4th is pretty standard. I thought there must be a lot of little cards out for me to catch.

I realize that it has become a standard play to raise 3rd to have pot odds to call a brick on 4th. I just never do that. I raise 3rd a lot, I also don't. I fold a lot of 4th street bricks, but I call when I just feel like it makes sense situationally and I almost never use pot odds. Sometimes you get a real big jammed up pot and then of course, I'm seeing 5th if I can.

[ QUOTE ]
The hand was played well. I'd expect to win it on the river, but I wouldn't have bet or raised.

[/ QUOTE ]Thanks, I was afraid it was just too nitty to check but now I think it was the best choice.

[tinkerman]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand One:

You make a good point in stating that the player may have a brick in the hole. When he called on third street, he knew that he'd have only one opponent, whom he hoped to outdraw on fourth street. In that case, he'd have the better board. Even if you called after you got a bad draw, he'd have equalized.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is his thinking then great as the odds of outdrawing you is around 4/1 and he is not getting these odds. He is making a losing play and you should be greatful. Fold here and wait for the next occassion.

Bad players can start with 3 good cards as well, so wait and pick a better spot to take is chips.

[MikeBandy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand One:
You make a good point in stating that the player may have a brick in the hole. When he called on third street, he knew that he'd have only one opponent, whom he hoped to outdraw on fourth street. In that case, he'd have the better board. Even if you called after you got a bad draw, he'd have equalized.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that is his thinking then great as the odds of outdrawing you is around 4/1 and he is not getting these odds. He is making a losing play and you should be greatful. Fold here and wait for the next occassion.

Bad players can start with 3 good cards as well, so wait and pick a better spot to take is chips.

[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome to 2+2, Tinkerman.
[ QUOTE ]
odds of outdrawing you is around 4/1

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you misunderstood me. I meant only that the villain was hoping to get a good enough card on fourth that he or she would have the better board, not the better hand.
[ QUOTE ]
Fold here

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree.

[betgo]

Fold hand 1 on 4th. He called your early position raise, so he probably has good cards. The 7 probably didn't pair him, since there is a 7 out and he probably started with better cards than that.