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#491
06-12-2007, 11:53 PM
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Re: Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt
[ QUOTE ]
Ive heard a decent amount of the evidence and it is pretty damning. [/ QUOTE ] Where is this evidence? In other sectors of the economy and community, a huge part of Australian law is the concept of "natural justice." I assume that this is broadly consistent across all Western Anglo legal systems. The basic principle as that the accused is entitled to see the evidence against them, and that they have an opportunity to defend themselves against the accusation. As far as I can see (and I may well have missed it - if so, please point me in the right direction) the accused has had: <ul type="square"> [*]no fair hearing [*]no independent judge[*]no presentation of the evidence[*]no opportunity to defend themself[*]no right of appeal[/list] Am I wrong? 
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#493
06-13-2007, 12:16 AM
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Re: Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt
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I'm sure FT's T&C's give them godlike powers over these sorts of issues [/ QUOTE ] FTP's T&C's do not erode the user's basic rights to be treated fairly. It is my (non-expert) understanding that this is a fairly settled area of western law. This is not something that is exclusive to criminal charges - other organisations in other sectors of the economy are also bound by these sorts of principles. It is most obvious in places like universities which have disciplinary systems, but also clubs, associations, and so on.
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#494
06-13-2007, 12:16 AM
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Re: Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt
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* no presentation of the evidence [/ QUOTE ] Just re: this point. The revelation of the evidence will allow others to defeat the site security in the future. It is a legitimate security concern. That, and its not a court. But I, for one, am still waiting to hear about any of this money being redistributed. In fact, when I think about it, I've never heard about anyone ever getting $$$ back from FTP. Unlike stars where plenty of people have receieved "bounty" unprompted. Did I miss something?
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#495
06-13-2007, 12:34 AM
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Re: Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] * no presentation of the evidence [/ QUOTE ] Just re: this point. The revelation of the evidence will allow others to defeat the site security in the future. It is a legitimate security concern. [/ QUOTE ] I think that if we are sufficiently "trusting" (bad word, but I can't think of the right one) of murderers and rapists in the community to publicly try them, then surely we can treat poker bot makers in the same way. In a handful of major terrorism cases, exceptions can be made for mass murderers on unprecedented scales - but even then there are still checks and balances (such as, for example, security vetted lawyers to act on the behalf of the accused). Surely it is absurd to say that poker bot makers are a greater security risk to others than murderers. [ QUOTE ] That, and its not a court. [/ QUOTE ] It is most certainly not only courts that are held to these sorts of standards in Australia. I listed some examples of other organisations subject to basic principles of natural justice - the listed examples are simply the most obvious off the top of my head.* The idea that any organisation has a right to take $70k from a customer, without being required to justify it to the customer, is entirely out of the realms of my understanding of the laws of this society (Australia). I assume it would be similarly outside the realms of common US practice. [ QUOTE ] But I, for one, am still waiting to hear about any of this money being redistributed. [/ QUOTE ] That's another good point, and I agree with this. If FTP thinks that the $70k has been obtained illegally from other customers, it should obviously be returned to those other customers. Incidentally, OP could help with this by providing his hand histories, run them through PokerTracker, and easily produce a list of people he has won money from. It would be difficult for FTP to deny an easily assembled list of people their rightful money (if, indeed, OP has cheated the system as FTP claims) Incidentally, this would remove the <u>massive</u> conflict of interest faced by FTP here - not only are they the judge and jury, but they are also the recipient of any money confiscated from the accused. [ QUOTE ] In fact, when I think about it, I've never heard about anyone ever getting $$$ back from FTP. Unlike stars where plenty of people have receieved "bounty" unprompted. Did I miss something? [/ QUOTE ] I similarly don't know of FTP returning money to people who have been cheated, but even if they did, there is a good chance that I wouldn't know about it. *Edit: cleaned up the grammar and made this a little clearer
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#496
06-13-2007, 01:11 AM
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Re: Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt
[ QUOTE ]
But I, for one, am still waiting to hear about any of this money being redistributed. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, I think we all are. Thanks for the update/input Gild- and any chance you have hands against BeatMe/ the other bots and are also due some monies? It would be nice to get players who feel they would be owed to post it as some sort of checklist for when these refunds happen. I got thru that last part straight faced. Go me.
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#497
06-13-2007, 01:45 AM
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Re: Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt
[ QUOTE ]
The idea that any organisation has a right to take $70k from a customer, without being required to justify it to the customer, is entirely out of the realms of my understanding of the laws of this society (Australia). I assume it would be similarly outside the realms of common US practice. [/ QUOTE ] Agree with your whole line of thinking, but I thought this was the quote that summed it all up nicely.
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#498
06-13-2007, 03:18 AM
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Re: Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The idea that any organisation has a right to take $70k from a customer, without being required to justify it to the customer, is entirely out of the realms of my understanding of the laws of this society (Australia). I assume it would be similarly outside the realms of common US practice. [/ QUOTE ] Agree with your whole line of thinking, but I thought this was the quote that summed it all up nicely. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, this quote is the way things SHOULD be. But you don't understand how these sites spell justice. It's spelled JUST US.
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#499
06-13-2007, 03:35 AM
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Re: Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt
[ QUOTE ]
no fair hearing no independent judge no presentation of the evidence no opportunity to defend themself no right of appeal [/ QUOTE ] I think you did miss something, the only one of your points that I feel is valid 'no opportunity to defend themself', however this being said since the evidence was so damning I can see why this wasn't offered. 1.) As other have said this isn't court, a hearing doesn't apply. 2.) I feel that FTP security serves as an independent judge that acts in the best interest of their patrons. 3.) Other have spoken on the presntation of evidence and why it is important not to let others know how to avoid the security measures that were used. 4.) Beatme1 was given information on how to appeal the decision but smugly laughed it off. Anyway I just hope that the $ seized really will go back to those who were cheated.
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#500
06-13-2007, 04:31 AM
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Re: Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt
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[ QUOTE ] I'm really glad that this guy has a hand in deciding whether or not I keep my money. [/ QUOTE ] again, this thread is great at identifying the posters who are simply dumb. welcome to the list. [/ QUOTE ] So you are saying A) crazy mike has had no influence over this situation; and B) I'm simply dumb Can't argue with that logic, thanks for playing.
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