Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt

[pokerchap]

i skipped 4 pages because clearly no one will never find out if he is a bot or not...

DID THEY PLAY HU4ROLZZ yet?

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
She has offered to travel to your HQ at her own expense, sit at a computer provided by you, and let your experts watch her play. If she plays the same game, you owe her the money

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't read the answer to this? If she programmed the bot, she can play as well as it. It would take an incredible amount of data to distinguish between bot and author, if it could be done at all.

FTPSean said one thing that was interesting. When they merely believe someone cheated, they only close the account and return funds. It is only when they are 100% certain, and the violations are grave, that they do things like seize $70k.

That makes sense.

I haven't seen anything in this current incident that makes me afraid to play at FTP. In fact, if gatoraide is right, that some places consciously tolerate bots, then FTP is way superior.

[bouglas]

It would certainly be interesting to know what might happen if Beatme1 did employ the services of a lawyer and challenge the act of FT under their own T&C. With 70k riding on the outcome if I was her and I was certain of my innocence then this is what I would be doing.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose that Beatme1 has a bot. Suppose also that Beatme1 can play exactly like the bot she has.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's actually quite unlikely. We are not talking about some low-limit set-farming nitbot. The algorithms required to produce a strong high-level LHE player would be quite complicated. There is a world of difference between programming these algorithms and actually executing the algorithms yourself with the exact same tempo as the bot. Especially if it involves multitabling for an extended period of time.

Even if Lisa is a very strong player who contributed all the poker expertise to her alleged bot the difference would probably be obvious.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Suppose that Beatme1 has a bot. Suppose also that Beatme1 can play exactly like the bot she has.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's actually quite unlikely. We are not talking about some low-limit set-farming nitbot. The algorithms required to produce a strong high-level LHE player would be quite complicated. There is a world of difference between programming these algorithms and actually executing the algorithms yourself with the exact same tempo as the bot. Especially if it involves multitabling for an extended period of time.

Even if Lisa is a very strong player who contributed all the poker expertise to her alleged bot the difference would probably be obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I would think. Again, its not proof positive, but I sure would like to know if this person could recreate the play live, in front of witnesses. And Full Tilt and Mr Gatorade should be interested in the answer to that question as well.

[Gregatron]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm beyond caring whether she really is a bot ot not, because of course we'll never know for certain. It's the process that troubles me.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is a very important point and something that many in this thread don't really seem to be able to grasp. Is Beatme1 using a bot? I don't know, and honestly don't care. Justice done in one particular instance is nothing -- NOTHING -- compared to a fair process. Guilt or innocence in this specific case is NOT the most important issue here!

What FTP has shown here is that they are willing to confiscate a member's money without recourse, providing no evidence, and having no appeals process.

Without government oversight, the only site that comes even close to having enough integrity to trust with those powers and not misuse them is PokerStars (sorry if that sounds naive). Yes, the same Stars that got a "100% sure" false positive on an innocent 58 year old mother farting around at nanolimit games.

As far as I'm concerned, when a site does something like what FT is doing, it's theft, pure and simple. It does not make me feel safe. And if it makes any of you people feel safe, then you are not thinking clearly.

[Injection]

If she's willing to go to the lengths of flying to the FT HQ or have people come watch her play blah blah, it would make sense to me that in the meantime she should be making some vids of herself playing w/ commentary if necessary and be taking pictures of her set-up to at least provide some proof that everything seems to be normal.

I know that if I was in this situation and with 2+2 being such a good public medium to help clear my name, I'd be posting here quite frequently with w/e proof I could find, vids/pics being the first thing that comes to mind.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
FTPSean said one thing that was interesting. When they merely believe someone cheated, they only close the account and return funds. It is only when they are 100% certain, and the violations are grave, that they do things like seize $70k.

That makes sense.

I haven't seen anything in this current incident that makes me afraid to play at FTP. In fact, if gatoraide is right, that some places consciously tolerate bots, then FTP is way superior.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and there is no way FT could be sure enough to confiscate OP's funds based on her never playing with the other bots evidence alone. That in itself, while highly suspicious, probably wouldn't even be enough evidence to ban.

Its likely FT analyzed OP's play and compared it to the other bots. I haven't looked at any of the stats but I suspect they play a very similar style with almost the exact same stats. If this is true, these 2 combined pieces of evidence would probably be enough to warrant banning but would not be enough to warrant confiscating the funds IMO.

It's likely FT found a third piece of evidence, perhaps bot software on OP's PC or some evidence linking OP to the other bots or some glitch in their software or whatever, it doesn't matter what really. Combining whatever else they found with the above two facts equals a smoking gun IMO.

Yes FT is being dickish to OP in the way they ceased communique, but in their minds OP is a thief. Thief's deserve to be treated like dicks. I know I'm not going to Mr. Nice Guy if I catch a kid stealing candy from my store.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Suppose that Beatme1 has a bot. Suppose also that Beatme1 can play exactly like the bot she has.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's actually quite unlikely. We are not talking about some low-limit set-farming nitbot. The algorithms required to produce a strong high-level LHE player would be quite complicated. There is a world of difference between programming these algorithms and actually executing the algorithms yourself with the exact same tempo as the bot. Especially if it involves multitabling for an extended period of time.

Even if Lisa is a very strong player who contributed all the poker expertise to her alleged bot the difference would probably be obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I would think. Again, its not proof positive, but I sure would like to know if this person could recreate the play live, in front of witnesses. And Full Tilt and Mr Gatorade should be interested in the answer to that question as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm picturing Doctors, Scientists, Programmers all standing behind her in lab coats writing on note pads and all nodding in agreement every time she clicks her mouse...lol. I'm sure that wouldn't be distracting or nothing...

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
It would certainly be interesting to know what might happen if Beatme1 did employ the services of a lawyer and challenge the act of FT under their own T&C. With 70k riding on the outcome if I was her and I was certain of my innocence then this is what I would be doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stated this upthread I believe, but I strongly suspect that a court would find the T&C unenforceable against beatme insofar as it allows FTP to unilaterally seize the funds without giving any detailed explanation or recourse.