Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

[DannyOcean_]

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I may not be on the 99 aston martin status, but I'm confortable enough to match spite calls. But that's a silly road for anyone to go down. So, my plan for here on out is basically to mirror your calling ranges. If you are spite calling me with T9, I'll do the same. If you are folding AKo everytime in this spot should our situation be reverse, I just might start mucking the AKo.


[/ QUOTE ]

someone found the game theoretic solution (nash equilibrium).

[jukofyork]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I may not be on the 99 aston martin status, but I'm confortable enough to match spite calls. But that's a silly road for anyone to go down. So, my plan for here on out is basically to mirror your calling ranges. If you are spite calling me with T9, I'll do the same. If you are folding AKo everytime in this spot should our situation be reverse, I just might start mucking the AKo.


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someone found the game theoretic solution (nash equilibrium).

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It's just the "Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma" in disguise.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[billybeartku]

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it cost you the $37 plus future ev because you would still have been chipleader on the bubble, the other two short stacks would have been whittled down to almost nothing before one went out, and you would be winning 3 blinds for ever 1 blind I won. Calling me here is just absolutely stupid, and probably cost you around $100 in just this tournament. Yea it cost me money as well, but I guarantee you it cost you more because I am going to spite call the [censored] out of you every chance I get from now on, and I am rich enough that the money it costs me won't mean anything. And I 16 table continuous so I will be in a ton of your games. Congrats on the metagame call. And I'm not shoving low unsuited cards there because the short stacks aren't folding near as much as all of you have been assuming.

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love it. good job Joe

[LeadbellyDan]

"I may not be on the 99 aston martin status, but I'm confortable enough to match spite calls. But that's a silly road for anyone to go down. So, my plan for here on out is basically to mirror your calling ranges. If you are spite calling me with T9, I'll do the same. If you are folding AKo everytime in this spot should our situation be reverse, I just might start mucking the AKo."

Eureka! Tit for tat is definitely the best stategy. It will end up with neither of you spitecalling and so you wont be passing on EV to the weaker players (that is if you are both rational agents [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

[bigj0e03]

fine, transfer me the $350 you cost me and I'll call it even.

[JDalla]

I didn't really know at the time it was a -ev play, I've just recently gotten into the equity math and all, and don't have any of those programs. I'm pretty sure most players would call AKo here, except maybe some of the top regulars, who apparently may call 74o.

According to what you teach your students, it looks I should occasionally be calling you there with 74o. This would suggest that you take the 'my bubble' concept (as chipleader) much more seriously than I do... so I don't see why this is such a big deal to you, unless your position is that I should have called you with 74o (to make a point) there but not AKo (which favors fairly well against your range.)

[donkeykong2]

instead of taking each others money by calling light you should talk to each other and agree to not call light on both sites.
just read so else has already pointed that out, yeah but whatever [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[JDalla]

I just downloaded SNG wizard and I was incorrect about a few things, although you may have been as well.

If you're pushing your between 40 and 80%, this is a +EV call. and really, based on what you said, you are pushing about 70% in this spot, so really this wasn't a metagame call at all, it was +EV.

(If your range goes up to 100%, it says this is a fold, but AQs is a call FYI.)

not sure how you can really object so much given this information.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
10 handed $225 on the bubble. utg is bigjoe2003.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">UTG (t5225)</font>
Button (t1800)
SB (t2140)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t5835)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t5200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t4800.

Flop: (t10075) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t10075) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t10075) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t10075

Upon busting, bigjoe informed me that this play was like -$100EV. My reasoning is that while this might be -EV for me, it is worse more -EV for him, and if I make calls like this against regulars, they will not be able to profitably push garbage on the bubble any more vs. my big blind. (he had J6). He said he wouldn't change his push range because I call him there with AK, but I'm not so sure. Seems like he'd have to to maximize profit.

Not to mention, if I fold everything in this situation but AA-QQ I not only make it very profitable for him to push any2 on the bubble, I also make it very likely that once we are in the money I will have equal of less chips than someone who is going to play roughly perfectly, while the other two players were pretty bad and missed out on all kinds of +ev situations, meaning that if I take out bigjoe I have a monster stack and lots of fold equity, giving me a very good chance of taking first.

is my reasoning sound at all, or am I just giving money away?

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Dude you have to call a lot lighter than AK for him to need to adjust his pushing range. Anyway I suspect that calling may be correct if hes pushing 100%. It really means a lot that when you lose you still have 600 chips. That's quite a lot of equity, even if it may seem meaningless at first glance.

[vetiver]

Only read up to page 4 of this thread, so maybe it's been mentioned. I don't know how calling AKo adds much metaEV at all when it's adding like one-three hands to your calling range. I don't think it makes him any less likely to fold to you in this situation because it will still be profitable to push ATC with your calling range of QQ+, AK. Unless he extrapolates that AKo call means you'll call any pair 8's or better.