Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[Zygote]

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Why does israel hold entire lebanon responsible for the crimes a few, isnt this what terrorists do?

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Your son is in your house shooting at mine. You won't do anything because you say you fear he'll shoot you. So I come through your door and you object to my travelling over your property to get to your son. Then when I do so anyway you object to my shooting your son and think I should use other means. So to me you are responsible to some degree. And it doesn't matter if you do have a legitimate fear your son will shoot you if you intervene, because he's *your* son. It's your house and you should keep it in order if you don't like the means others use. Note this all started because *your* son was shooting into *my* property.

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your analogy isnt close. Israel never attempted to go after those soley responsible. They only gave people the chance to object to going after them entirely. They had no purpose in going to the extent they did and punishing endless non-responsible individuals.

this is as stupid as placing sanctions on iran and holding the entire iranian nation responsible for the crimes of a few.

[BluffTHIS!]

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why have they continued land expansion in undeserved territory rather than maintaining the deserved territory?

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They won a war which they didn't morally initiate in 1967 since the Arabs were planning to attack first. And they won another war in 1973 when they did subject themselves to allowing the Arabs to attack first even though they knew it was coming. So they were morally in the right in those wars and took land in reparation for the wrongs against them. Starting and losing wars have consequences but the Arabs and their apologists want to be able to strike Israel and then go back to the status quo when they get stomped instead of having some permanent consequence meted out to them in punishment. Pretty sweet deal if Israel is sucker enough to go for it.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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yes i've seen all of this. jewish children are subject to a lot of this non sense too.

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Yikes....moral equivalism alert!
Any Israeli propaganda is not even on the same map with what the palestinians do to teach their children. This is of course assumes I accept your premise (which I do not). Your statement is like saying a person who starts a schoolyard fight is equally guilty as a mass murdering serial killer. Both commit violence. And "murder is just a common assault with unfortunate consequences". Yes? (a quote from Horace Rumpole, the world's greatest defense lawyer).


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Why does israel hold entire lebanon responsible for the crimes a few, isnt this what terrorists do?

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No...terrorism is the policy of INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians. The palestinians are notorius for setting up mortars in civilian neighborhoods. When Israeli fires back, then the palestinians exploit the deaths of civilians which they are primarily responsible for...

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from what i can see from your analysis is not to send arabs into the distance but rather to start exterminating all of them.

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Expelling all the Arabs in Israel will be sufficient....

[Goater]

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yes i've seen all of this. jewish children are subject to a lot of this non sense too. if israel gave back the territories jewish terrorist could become a problem, for example, because many are as fanatically indoctrinated. most of jewish fanatics do their bidding through the military though while the other side does this through less formal organizations. if they lost military support i think youd see some serious jewish resistance groups.

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This is the sort of rubbish I hear all the time. How do you know this exactly? Please provide evidence/links to the same sort of stuff Palestinian children are fed on a daily basis. The media, human rights organisations, the UN all constantly reinforce this equivalence idea in every aspect of the conflict. "Cycle of violence", "extremists on both sides", etc... people blindly accept it as gospel.

The brainwashing of children and the glorification of brutality, death and murder is possibly the biggest problem of all. Hamas uses a mickey mouse character telling children that Jews are the sons of pigs and apes and telling them that the highest calling is to die attacking them. The word "Israel" does not appear on any Palestinian maps. They are taught that Jews are evil and the cause of every upheaval in the world including, explicitly "the french revolution and the communist revolution". They name streets and football teams after suicide bombers. They "report" that Israel organises orgies in muslim holy places, that the IDF drops poisoned sweets for Palestinian children, that Israel infected 300 Palestinian children with HIV, that the IDF x-rayed a Palestinian woman to death at a checkpoint, that Shamir (ex-Israeli Prime Minister) had the skull of a Palestinian fetus that was cut out of a Palestinian woman on his desk as an ashtray! Need I go on? This is yet another example of how the Palestian people are victims themselves - the world refuses to believe this and what Israel faces.

The Israeli education system, like the majority of the media, is left wing. Yuli Tamir, the education minister in the Israeli government, recently approved a textbook for Israeli arab children that referred to the establishment of the State of Israel as the "nakba" (the catastrophe), the arabic term that is used to refer to the establishment of the state. Shulamit Aloni, an ex education minister (and far left activist) has stated that she believes Israel practices apartheid against the Palestinians. Israeli children receive an Israeli left wing education which is very sympathetic to the palestinian cause.

If you want links to the above I will be happy to find them for you tomorrow. Please provide links to what you believe is taught to Israeli children or stop spouting this sort of rubbish.

[Zygote]

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If you want links to the above I will be happy to find them for you tomorrow. Please provide links to what you believe is taught to Israeli children or stop spouting this sort of rubbish.

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i dont need to look for links but maybe will tomorrow when i got time. I can tell you, as a jew, i grew up being taught to hate arabs. When felix children ask him what the arabs are he's going to say they are all murderous venoms who should be treated like dogs. I have tons of jewish friends who constantly joke the only thing better than one dead arab is millions of dead arabs. where do you think that comes from?

why do you think Rabin was assassinated just for being sympathetic the Palestinian cause? did you see how jews reacted when they gave back some of gaza too? like i said, many of hte jews did their bidding through the likud to impose their crazy religious beliefs this is just seemingly more legitimized.

three of my cousins serve in the Israeli military and all have very biased views on the issue and have a feeling that we just must be horrible to Arabs. the hatred very much exists on the Jewish side.

ive got more to say but gotta get some stuff done before the youtube debate. hopefully we can redress this tomorrow.

[dazraf69]

I do not pretend to be an expert. I am not articulate as it seems you are. I have served My Country (USA) well and am saddened to see that what the fundamental ideas that this nation was built on has corroded away and has been replaced by the ideologies of corrupt minds.

The Final Solution
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My solution to the Israel-Arab peace process?
1. Israel invades Gaza and Arab controlled areas of the West Bank and annexes the land.
2. Take away the citizenship of all Arabs inside Israel.
3. Relocate all Arabs inside Israel and dump them on the borders of Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon. Let their Arab brothers give them sanctuary.
4. Drink a beer for a job well done... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
5. Endure the occasional rocket attacks accross the borders but launch occasional cross border attacks to kill these scum.

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-Felix

The Final Solution
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What is clear is that the genocide of the Jews was the culmination of a decade of Nazi policy, under the rule of Adolf Hitler. The "Final Solution" was implemented in stages. After the June 1933 Nazi party rise to power, state-enforced racism resulted in anti-Jewish legislation, boycotts, "Aryanization," and finally the "Night of Broken Glass" pogrom, all of which aimed to remove the Jews from German society. After the beginning of World War II, anti-Jewish policy evolved into a comprehensive plan to concentrate and eventually annihilate European Jewry.

The Nazis established ghettos in occupied Poland. Polish and western European Jews were deported to these ghettos. During the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, mobile killing squads (Einsatzgruppen) began killing entire Jewish communities. The methods used, mainly shooting or gas vans, were soon regarded as inefficient and as a psychological burden on the killers. After the Wannsee Conference in January 1942, the Nazis began the systematic deportation of Jews from all over Europe to six extermination camps established in former Polish territory -- Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, and Majdanek. Extermination camps were killing centers designed to carry out genocide. Over three million Jews were gassed in extermination camps. In its entirety, the "Final Solution" consisted of gassings, shootings, random acts of terror, disease, and starvation that accounted for the deaths of about six million Jews -- two-thirds of European Jewry.

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http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/fsol.htm

We often dismiss the past when considering the future.

[adios]

Abbas and Ohlmert might very well reach some sort of agreement. Of course Hamas controlled Gaza won't be part of the agreement. I don't think that much of what Felix is proposing is even being contemplated by Israel.

[Goater]

There has always been a very small percentage of people in Israel that advocate what the OP says. They have virtually no support whatsoever and these ideas have never been considered in official government circles.

If I remember correctly, this was petty much the view of the Kach political party that was banned in Israel in the late 80s.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

How did we go from deportation to genocide?

You are correct....you are not articulate so you use the dishonest debate tactic called the "straw man" argument. You ignore my points, misrepresent my position, then attack that fictional position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

The only corrupt mind I see is yours.
You fear to address my arguments head on and in a honest manner. If you want to be more articulate, then educate yourself by reading. History books are an excellent source to see what policies succeed and which policies fail. Machiavelli wrote an excellent book on what policies are proven successful by history and which policies have proven to be failures.... The book is called "The Prince". Put down your Harry Potter books and read a REAL book a month for the next two years and then come and debate me...

Your feelings are not facts. Your feelings are unpersuasive. A two year old child is full of feelings but we don't base our national policy on that child's feelings....no matter how 'true' those feelings may feel to that child.

[canis582]

Felix, I agree with you. It would be best for our world if we 'deported' all superstitious (religious) people.

So you have no problem with Hitler's final solution to his 'jewish question', you just wish he would have deported them all to madagascar?