LO8: Raise or limp UTG with premium hands???

[Lucere]

Obviously part of this has to do with the dynamics of the table at the time, but I'm curious as to what people think about this. Let's say with a hand like AA24 double suited. Raise or limp UTG?

[samwallistea]

In Mike Cappellatti's "How to win at Omaha Hi Low" book he says to limp big hands like this in early position to build a bigger pot. I follow this advice as I am new to the game and do not question a seasoned pro.

[Buzz]

Lucere - This topic has been kicked around ad nauseum. People pretty much have their own ideas.

I find that very fine opponents differ. (Some raise more than others).

I personally play Omaha-8 quite differently from Texas hold 'em and various other games. I'll usually (but not always) raise when entering the pot in Th'e, and from almost any position. But I usually do not raise when entering the pot in O8 (but sometimes I raise).

You wrote:[ QUOTE ]
Obviously part of this has to do with the dynamics of the table at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]I think whether to raise or limp UTG with any hand entirely depends upon the dynamics of the table.

AA24 double suited is clearly a premium O8 hand. Of the 16432 uniquely different starting hands, I rate AA24 double suited as the number two best possible starting hand (followed in order by AA34d, AA25d, and then AA23 single suited).

Which of these fine starting hands is better is moot. They're all premium starting hands.

These are great starting hands because
(1) they fit well with lots of flops, enabling you to continue,
(2) they often end up as the nuts,
(3) they play well in a full game, and
(4) they play well short handed.

When I am dealt a premium starting hand I think of two things: (1) optimizing my potential profit on the current hand, and (2) how playing a particular hand will affect potential profit on future hands.

And both of those are all about table dynamics.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously part of this has to do with the dynamics of the table at the time, but I'm curious as to what people think about this. Let's say with a hand like AA24 double suited. Raise or limp UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]



Let's say i'm playing in an aggressive high limit game. I'll limp re-raise with this hand and be happy playing it either multiway or headsup. The beauty of this hand, as with several hands in LO8, is that they play well both headsup and multiway, much more so than say, AQs in hold'em.

If I were playing this hand at a shorthanded aggressive table, I'd play it simple and straight forward and raise UTG, expecting to get action as usual.

But I have a feeling you're probably playing in the standard loose passive games that dominate low and middle limit O8, which means you should limp this hand the majority of the time especially if you feel certain someone will raise a fair amount of the time after you limp. When UTG limps in a loose passive game it's like a cattle call for everyone to put in one SB and see a flop. Just try and think about how often people call a raise from UTG in the game you're playing in. If there's one or two preflop calling stations go ahead and raise. If there's one or two aggressive players behind you, try to limp re-raise.


I'll be honest with you, with AA24 double suited, it's damn hard to misplay that hand in any situation. If you're able to fold one pair, you really can't misplay AA24 DS. The only mistake you can make with AA24 is misunderstanding the type of game you're playing in and failing to get as much money in the pot as possible preflop, or failing to recognize the strengths and weaknesses in your game and putting yourself in a position where you dont know how to react. Some players are great headsup players just by default, but play poorly multiway. I'm off on another tangent, but it's something to consider when playing this hand UTG.


For the vast majority of the time though, your decision should be as simple as answering the question 'what kind of game am i playing in?'



-Tex

[xSCWx]

I'm not the greatest O/8 player but I've raked in a profit up to 5/10 limit and in $33 PLO/8 tournaments.

I would say that the ideal time to raise a hand like this in early position is if you are at a passive table where it is unlikely there will be a raise.

In a fishy aggressive game you will probably be better off limp raising because players seem to be prone to trying to have exactly 1 preflop raise per pot in my experience.

In a less fishy game concealing your hand will be much more valuable. Depending on how often you are raising it isn't extremely difficult to put you on a small range of A2xx, A3xx, AAxx, etc. If you can play well post flop, disguising your hand will be considerably more profitable in the long run than a preflop pot builder (or field narrower).

[Lucere]

Thanks for the answers. It's a helpful take on this. Sorry if this question was a beaten horse.

[Murakawa]

How do people play it shorthanded? People will seem to play anything short handed and I usually raise with premium hand and get called by KQJT and A5Q9s. That's good enough for me. What about ya'll?

[Zophar]

That's basically the point of what the others are saying, understand the table dynamics.

If you are UTG and it's LAG after you, limp/reaising is suitable. If it's not LAG after you, limping is probably the best bet. The key is getting action.

If in situations like you describe, open raising my be fine if you are going to get the callers. I've played many tables where a raise is meaningless for isolating and it's strictly used to build pots because the opponents will call 1 bet or 2 without any hesitency. Let the play of the table dictate your optimum approach to the game.

[Machmood]

The games i play in are 10/20 and 15/30 live. These games are very lose, and have a bunch of guys who love to gamble. In a game like this(many live omaha/8 games fit this description)it all depends on how "live" the table is. omaha/8 games have tendencies to completly snap off and become extremly lose, in this situation i raise with premium hands UTG because i know ill get action. If its early in the nght and the game is slow ill limp. Basically figure out how the game is running, and figure out how to get the most money in the pot, its really that simple

[RobNottsUk]

To decide the best course, you have to figure out what you are trying to achieve, and whether the table make up will allow you to do it.

The reasons to raise are :

1) Thin the field, increasing chances of AA holding up or a bluff working against small field (by folding out hands that would otherwise beat you eg) Hi only hands, or A3 Lo hand when your 2 is counterfeited)

2) Build a larger pot, by charging opponents more to see a flop

A reason not to raise, is that your opponents may put you on A2 or AA, and not pay off, or they may play more passively on flop and not get trapped for 2 bets on flops favourable to you. Nut potential hands, like to have 2nd nut hands to pay them off, folding opponents out is then counter productive.

So as Buzz pointed out, the best course depends on table dynamics, and for future hands, as well as this particular hand (unless you're ready to leave the table). As others have suggested, limp/re-raising a highly multi-way pot may achieve goal 2, where cold calling opponents prevent goal 1 succeeding, on other hand it could just give your hand away to observant opponents.

Capelletti's book, assumes thinking opponents capable of folding A3xx pre-flop, who'll struggle folding 2nd nut Lo post-flop, rather than post-flop weak-tight players who'll pay over odds to see a flop, but then fold too frequently on the flop.

My net opponents, from 25c/50c to $1/$2 level, in general seem to be hard to take off any kind of a hand, so keeping the pot smaller pre-flop, and making hands which then get paid off (raising for value) appears to be superior strategy.

However raising pre-flop seems to be resented by some players, who attempt to make a counter move against a perceived 'tight' player, in unfavourable circumstances, so whilst it may be hard to thin the field (even in 4-bet pf pots), if you do catch a good board, the pay off can sometimes be disproportionate, due to 'adrenaline' fuelled play of opponents.