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  #1  
Old 11-13-2007, 10:23 PM
Small Fry Small Fry is offline
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Default And the winner is.....??

Cash game.
On the river.
Player A bets.
Player B calls.
Player A says, "Nice call" and tosses his hand away.

And the winner is.....


If I correctly understand the position stated by some of the respondents in the "Home game ruling - was this guy a douche" post http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1, then there can only be one correct answer for this.
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  #2  
Old 11-13-2007, 10:32 PM
Taso Taso is offline
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Default Re: And the winner is.....??

Not really. You need to define "tosses his hand away." Did he do it face up? Face down?

Face up, whoever has the best hand wins.

Face down, Player B wins.
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  #3  
Old 11-14-2007, 07:26 AM
pfapfap pfapfap is offline
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Default Re: And the winner is.....??

Small Fry, I take it you don't play in cardrooms often? This is a very common situation. If A mucks face-down, B wins. If A throws his cards face-up anywhere on the table, it's a showdown.

I always muck immediately when this happens.
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  #4  
Old 11-14-2007, 02:22 PM
PantsOnFire PantsOnFire is offline
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Default Re: And the winner is.....??

[ QUOTE ]
Cash game.
On the river.
Player A bets.
Player B calls.
Player A says, "Nice call" and tosses his hand away.

And the winner is.....


[/ QUOTE ]
Cards face down --> B
Cards face up --> best hand
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  #5  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:09 PM
Small Fry Small Fry is offline
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Default Re: And the winner is.....??

[ QUOTE ]
Not really. You need to define "tosses his hand away." Did he do it face up? Face down?

Face up, whoever has the best hand wins.

Face down, Player B wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this for a definition: Muck, according to Robert's rules is "to discard ones hand" . To "discard" means "to throw away or get rid of". So we have Muck meaning to throw away or to get rid of ones hand. No mention of the position of the cards or where they're thrown.

So we have a situation where it is Player A's turn to act. He has been called and now, as first to act, he can either show his hand or he can muck it. By the defininition above, by tossing his hand into the middle of the table, or away, he has elected to muck.
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  #6  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:16 PM
Lottery Larry Lottery Larry is offline
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Posts: 6,198
Default Re: And the winner is.....??

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not really. You need to define "tosses his hand away." Did he do it face up? Face down?

Face up, whoever has the best hand wins.

Face down, Player B wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this for a definition: Muck, according to Robert's rules is "to discard ones hand" . To "discard" means "to throw away or get rid of". So we have Muck meaning to throw away or to get rid of ones hand. No mention of the position of the cards or where they're thrown.

So we have a situation where it is Player A's turn to act. He has been called and now, as first to act, he can either show his hand or he can muck it. By the defininition above, by tossing his hand into the middle of the table, or away, he has elected to muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you REALLY want to try to manage this, in live play? Because, if I'm interpreting your intent correctly, you're going to cause more problems that this solves (potentially)
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  #7  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:30 PM
Rottersod Rottersod is offline
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Default Re: And the winner is.....??

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not really. You need to define "tosses his hand away." Did he do it face up? Face down?

Face up, whoever has the best hand wins.

Face down, Player B wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this for a definition: Muck, according to Robert's rules is "to discard ones hand" . To "discard" means "to throw away or get rid of". So we have Muck meaning to throw away or to get rid of ones hand. No mention of the position of the cards or where they're thrown.

So we have a situation where it is Player A's turn to act. He has been called and now, as first to act, he can either show his hand or he can muck it. By the defininition above, by tossing his hand into the middle of the table, or away, he has elected to muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

SF, you are really being a nit. If you were to ever try this at a casino you'd have the entire table laughing at you. I suggest you re-think your definitions in light of reality.
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  #8  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:37 PM
PantsOnFire PantsOnFire is offline
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Posts: 2,409
Default Re: And the winner is.....??

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not really. You need to define "tosses his hand away." Did he do it face up? Face down?

Face up, whoever has the best hand wins.

Face down, Player B wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this for a definition: Muck, according to Robert's rules is "to discard ones hand" . To "discard" means "to throw away or get rid of". So we have Muck meaning to throw away or to get rid of ones hand. No mention of the position of the cards or where they're thrown.

So we have a situation where it is Player A's turn to act. He has been called and now, as first to act, he can either show his hand or he can muck it. By the defininition above, by tossing his hand into the middle of the table, or away, he has elected to muck.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was at the Venetian in a tournament a while back. It was heads up on the turn. I moved in with air against an opponent I knew would fold unless she had one particular hand. Well she called and had that hand and I tossed my cards face up and they landed on the muck. Villain tried to scoop the pot but the dealer pulled my cards off the muck and dealt the river which gave me an inside straight that I didn't even consider. Villain called the floor over and the floor ruled in my favour saying my hand was still live because it was tabled.

And dat's da truth.
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  #9  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:38 PM
pfapfap pfapfap is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Play Bad and Get There
Posts: 1,799
Default Re: And the winner is.....??

[ QUOTE ]
How is this for a definition: Muck, according to Robert's rules is "to discard ones hand" . To "discard" means "to throw away or get rid of". So we have Muck meaning to throw away or to get rid of ones hand. No mention of the position of the cards or where they're thrown.

So we have a situation where it is Player A's turn to act. He has been called and now, as first to act, he can either show his hand or he can muck it. By the definition above, by tossing his hand into the middle of the table, or away, he has elected to muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno why you're so obsessed over this. Did a ruling not go your way somewhere? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

In the case where intention is unclear, it's a simple matter to ask. It's easy and in the spirit of the game and ensures the proper person wins the pot. Why are you still trying to hammer this out? You're adding definitions and interpretations to guidelines when the easiest and safest solution is simply to request clarification from the players. Rules are meant to protect, not punish.
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  #10  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:44 PM
Small Fry Small Fry is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 761
Default Re: And the winner is.....??

[ QUOTE ]
Small Fry, I take it you don't play in cardrooms often? This is a very common situation. If A mucks face-down, B wins. If A throws his cards face-up anywhere on the table, it's a showdown.

I always muck immediately when this happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this is will most likely be the ruling.

And it ignores the definition of muck. See my response to Taso for information on that.

I'm debating this for the sake of a good debate....(I've been told I'm a little demented this way sometimes) as it seems to me that while it is accepted that a players hand when face up is live there are no facts to back it up. Just because everyone thinks something doesn't make it correct, (or the world really would be flat)

So, if you're up for it, feel free to invalidate my arguments with your own set facts.

Perhaps someone can provide a defintion of "tabling ones hand"? I can't find one.
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