Pot control or protection? Discuss this texture

[TheDoubleA]

Oh I also want to add, you should not be looking at his stats really at all. I dont like this part here:
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Villain is running 17/7/oo over a very small sample. So as a default I assume that he is nittish and won't call light.

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Why put him on any kind of style when its over a very small sample?

You know what they say about assuming right? Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.

[Genz]

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I hate a check here for the exact reason you stated in the OP. "Many broadways have a draw" There is no way I let AQ draw to there straight for free. Also, if a person has AK here, you should be getting as much money in here as possible. Sure, you could be CR'd, and then you would have a fine idea of where you stand: beat. I think that checking here might keep the pot small, but I also think that it can lose the pot for you plenty of times.


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The straight draw is only a longshot with 4 outs. Does this make protection so important that I want to play a big pot on this board?
Consider! It's a 3bet pot, i.e. villain has less than 2 pot sized bets left. So when I bet the pot here and he pushes, I'll be getting better than 2:1. Do I want to be in that position?

As I said, I suspect villain to be nitty, so I think that he won't go all the way with AK. So when I can only win maybe a 3/4 pot or full pot more from him, why shouldn't I try to get closer to showdown?

When I have his range crushed, why do I want to take the pot down? As I said, draws are more or less longshots. So why shouldn't I try to induce a bet by a second best hand?

[Genz]

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Oh I also want to add, you should not be looking at his stats really at all. I dont like this part here:
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is running 17/7/oo over a very small sample. So as a default I assume that he is nittish and won't call light.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why put him on any kind of style when its over a very small sample?

You know what they say about assuming right? Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.

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LOL. Nice line. But the thing is that the sample size doesn't matter in this case. I'd like to discuss how to play these spots against nits or tags where it's a little difficult to chose between protection, value and pot control.

[monkover]

well genz as i stated in my post above it´s close and it depends if you want to play itsafe or not. it´s both +ev and the difference imo is very marginal.

[TheDoubleA]

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I hate a check here for the exact reason you stated in the OP. "Many broadways have a draw" There is no way I let AQ draw to there straight for free. Also, if a person has AK here, you should be getting as much money in here as possible. Sure, you could be CR'd, and then you would have a fine idea of where you stand: beat. I think that checking here might keep the pot small, but I also think that it can lose the pot for you plenty of times.


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The straight draw is only a longshot with 4 outs. Does this make protection so important that I want to play a big pot on this board?
Consider! It's a 3bet pot, i.e. villain has less than 2 pot sized bets left. So when I bet the pot here and he pushes, I'll be getting better than 2:1. Do I want to be in that position?

As I said, I suspect villain to be nitty, so I think that he won't go all the way with AK. So when I can only win maybe a 3/4 pot or full pot more from him, why shouldn't I try to get closer to showdown?

When I have his range crushed, why do I want to take the pot down? As I said, draws are more or less longshots. So why shouldn't I try to induce a bet by a second best hand?

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Well then I think the question should be this:
Should I check here to induce a bluff, or cbet and try to build the pot now?

How about this; you check behind. Turn comes a 10, Q, or 8, and villian pushes on you with AK. Or turn comes Q and villian pushes on you with 88.

Now what?

You just are opening this pot up to be taken away from you when in all likelyhood you have the best hand. I hate a check.

[monkover]

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I hate a check here for the exact reason you stated in the OP. "Many broadways have a draw" There is no way I let AQ draw to there straight for free. Also, if a person has AK here, you should be getting as much money in here as possible. Sure, you could be CR'd, and then you would have a fine idea of where you stand: beat. I think that checking here might keep the pot small, but I also think that it can lose the pot for you plenty of times.


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The straight draw is only a longshot with 4 outs. Does this make protection so important that I want to play a big pot on this board?
Consider! It's a 3bet pot, i.e. villain has less than 2 pot sized bets left. So when I bet the pot here and he pushes, I'll be getting better than 2:1. Do I want to be in that position?

As I said, I suspect villain to be nitty, so I think that he won't go all the way with AK. So when I can only win maybe a 3/4 pot or full pot more from him, why shouldn't I try to get closer to showdown?

When I have his range crushed, why do I want to take the pot down? As I said, draws are more or less longshots. So why shouldn't I try to induce a bet by a second best hand?

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Well then I think the question should be this:
Should I check here to induce a bluff, or cbet and try to build the pot now?

How about this; you check behind. Turn comes a 10, Q, or 8, and villian pushes on you with AK. Or turn comes Q and villian pushes on you with 88.

Now what?

You just are opening this pot up to be taken away from you when in all likelyhood you have the best hand. I hate a check.

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I don´t think you got the point of this whole thread! what we exactly don´t want is to inflate the pot.

[Genz]

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since you are ahead of villains range you have to approach this as a value spot until villain does something to change his worse range.

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It's a 3bet pot. We are not deep enough to have much room for maneuvering. As I said in another reply, villain has less than 2 pot bets left. So when I bet here, the next bet is a shove. Do I really want to invest 30% of my stack here already or do I want to delay the betting so that draws have less value and weaker hands might become overconfident?
Or would you make smallish bets like $2 to get villain pot stuck? That kind of bet could result in villain attacking a perceived weakness. And do I want to stack off with one pair against a tight player in a 3bet pot on this board?

[TheDoubleA]

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I don´t think you got the point of this whole thread! what we exactly don´t want is to inflate the pot.

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Not trying to be a jerk, I promise.

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Why is this flop the right one to check and get closer to showdown? Or why is it the wrong one?

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I think it is the wrong flop to check because we are opening up this pot to be taken away from us by letting a drawing hand draw a card for free, and/or opening up the pot to be taken away from us by a strong bet/push by villian on turn.

I would bet 2/3s pot here and see what happens. If villian pushes, maybe we lay it down. If villian calls and checks the turn, then I would check behind.

[danny8]

i think trying to fold out AK TPTK in a 3bet is a very futile attempt, even from nits.

obv you're not trying to fold out AK, but i think worrying about folding it out is a little redundant unless you have a very significant read... which we dont seem to have

[Genz]

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How about this; you check behind. Turn comes a 10, Q, or 8, and villian pushes on you with AK. Or turn comes Q and villian pushes on you with 88.


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I actually pondered the following during the hand: the board is already very coordinated, so the huge majority of turn cards that can come off are going to be blanks, esp. because villain is more likely to hold broadway cards than something like a small connector.

Thoughts?