Ugly comments in hand histories.

[Pokey]

As I read through uNL hand histories I see a big range of responses: the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Good responses are thorough, thoughtful, and based firmly in solid math and solid poker skills. "Raise preflop because your hand is probably best and you want to be heads-up and you want cut down on your opponent's implied odds." See? That's a good response because it actually explains what you are thinking and why, because it's based on good poker theory, and because it actually has the potential to educate the reader.

Bad responses are sparse and unhelpful (even if they are correct). "Raise pre" is a bad response. Even if you are 100% correct, nobody would ever gain any new poker insights from your comment. Since the goal of 2+2 is to be a learning community, accuracy is less important than thoroughness. An incorrect answer that is well explained will at least move the discussion forward, even if only to have others explain why that line of thinking is incorrect. A correct four-word answer accomplishes nothing.

Ugly responses are ones that SOUND like good responses but that are based on BAD poker theory. Many times these are often-repeated poker aphorisms which get mentioned so often that people begin to think they are true. These are the comments I want to explore in this post, because the sooner we clean them out of our Bin 'O Responses, the sooner we'll get back to learning good poker.

<font color="blue">You should raise for information.</font>

Information is great -- it's valuable and useful. But it's rarely worth the price if that's the only reason you're betting. Usually we SAY we're betting for information when in reality we're betting for other reasons. We're betting because we think we're ahead, or we're betting because we think the bluff will work often enough to be +EV, or we're betting to disguise our hand, or we're betting to block our opponent from making it too expensive for us to call ("pricing ourselves into the draw") or what have you. Now it's true that villain's response to the bet will give us information, but that's not really WHY we're raising. Think of it this way: if you folded to your opponent on the flop/turn/river and he said to you "hey, give me 20 BBs and I'll let you see my hand," would you do it? THAT'S paying for information, and it's a bad idea.

<font color="blue">Fold -- you've only got 4 BBs invested in the hand.</font>

Wow -- I've always hated this argument. It dove-tails nicely with that old poker aphorism "don't go broke in an unraised pot." Your "investment" in the hand is irrelevant. Whether you've got 200 BBs in the pot or 2 BBs in the pot, your decision of whether to bet/raise, check/call, or fold should be related to your hand, your opponent's range, and the odds. Some people are using this "investment" idea as a proxy for what they really mean: "since the pot was limped your opponent's range is wider than usual, so you need to be extra cautious -- beware of sneaky monsters." Alternatively, some people mean "you've got so much behind (relative to the size of the pot) that your hand REALLY suffers from reverse implied odds." Both of these can be extremely valid points that can mean that folding is best, but they have nothing to do with your "investment" directly. Stop saying the irrelevant and inaccurate versions and say what you mean instead.

<font color="blue">You're definitely ahead of his range, here -- push.</font>

This bit of advice is bad in a very sneaky way, because it tricks you into making a mistake.

Let's say you've got 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB and you overcall a raise from a tight-passive opponent.

The flop comes T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. You bet 2/3rds pot, it folds to the rock, and he calls.

The turn is J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. You check and the rock checks.

The river is 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], giving you a low flush. Now, you are undoubtedly ahead of your opponent's range right now, but that does NOT mean that you should bet hard, or even check-raise. Given that your opponent is tight and passive, he's going to fold most of the hands that you already beat, and he's going to call with most of the hands that beat you. He's also going to raise with hands that have you beaten badly. By betting strongly you make a very -EV play, even though you are ahead of your opponent's range right now. Remember -- there's a huge difference between being ahead of his range and being ahead of his range AFTER HE CALLS. Make sure you don't confuse the two.

<font color="blue">If you xxxxxxxx you are turning your hand face-up.</font>

No, you're not. Ever.

If the board is A477A and you push, you are not turning your hand face up. You will get called by a 7 every time, and you'll usually get called by 44. If the board is Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and you B3BAI you are not turning your hand face-up; you could have JT, you could have [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], you could have a set, you could have an overpair, you could have AQ. If you check/call the coordinated flop, check/call the turn, and donkbet the river when the draw hits, your opponents will assume you could have two pair or even TPTK slowplayed. If you five-bet all-in preflop you could have AA, KK, or AK (wider if your opponent is hyperaggressive).

If you are ever taking a line so incredibly specific that you could ONLY do it with one precise hand then you need to change the way you play VERY quickly, because that's a bad situation. More importantly, if your opponents are so narrow-minded as to put you on a SINGLE holding when you make a particular action that narrow-mindedness will prove a cash bonanza for you when you start to think outside the box and they don't. The coolest situation in the world is when your play "turns your hand face up" as a hand you DON'T have -- that's where big-time profits come from. Look for opportunities to "turn your hand face up" as something other than what you hold, because that's where FTOP mistakes are born. If your opponent folds to your bluff, you make out like a bandit. If your opponent pays off your sneaky monster you'll usually make DOUBLE-money: first from the pot and second from the advertising and confusion that you put in your opponents' minds.

<font color="blue">Call and play poker on the turn/river.</font>

Wow, great suggestion! Here I thought we were playing hearts....

"Call and play poker" roughly translates as "call, but I have no idea what to do on the next street." You should NEVER call and "see what happens." You should look ahead, see what MIGHT happen, and plan your responses accordingly, and you should do that before you call. If you've got QQ and your OOP opponent donkbets into you for half-pot on a flop of AJ7r, you don't "call and play poker on the turn." You decide NOW what you're going to do on the turn. If your opponent frequently donkbets as a bluff and then gives up on the turn, you should call now and check behind on the turn, intending to call any river bet. If your opponent never donkbets without TPNK or better you should either fold now or raise now (if you have oodles of folding equity because your opponent is extremely weak-tight). If your opponent could have any pair you might call down to the river or you might raise now and fold to a three-bet or you might call intending to raise the turn or river. But you never just "play it by ear" -- you act with a plan or you don't act at all. Much of our postflop poker profit comes from knowing in advance what we're going to do on later streets. Because your opponents are too shortsighted to bother looking ahead they'll make FTOP mistakes postflop that you won't make because you've got a plan and they don't. Since this planning is a major source of your profits you should never give it away by "playing poker."

[whyzze]

first of all, I want to say awesome post.

Especially:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Call and play poker on the turn/river.</font>

Wow, great suggestion! Here I thought we were playing hearts....

"Call and play poker" roughly translates as "call, but I have no idea what to do on the next street." You should NEVER call and "see what happens." You should look ahead, see what MIGHT happen, and plan your responses accordingly, and you should do that before you call. If you've got QQ and your OOP opponent donkbets into you for half-pot on a flop of AJ7r, you don't "call and play poker on the turn." You decide NOW what you're going to do on the turn. If your opponent frequently donkbets as a bluff and then gives up on the turn, you should call now and check behind on the turn, intending to call any river bet. If your opponent never donkbets without TPNK or better you should either fold now or raise now (if you have oodles of folding equity because your opponent is extremely weak-tight). If your opponent could have any pair you might call down to the river or you might raise now and fold to a three-bet or you might call intending to raise the turn or river. But you never just "play it by ear" -- you act with a plan or you don't act at all. Much of our postflop poker profit comes from knowing in advance what we're going to do on later streets. Because your opponents are too shortsighted to bother looking ahead they'll make FTOP mistakes postflop that you won't make because you've got a plan and they don't. Since this planning is a major source of your profits you should never give it away by "playing poker."

[/ QUOTE ]


someone finally said it.

[shyturtle27]

Wow, really nice post. Most people (including myself) need to take this advice to heart especially in uNL where there are so many posters coming and going.

[Pokeyisright]

&lt;---------

[Monster207]

This is a really good post. I'm guilty of the "you're ahead of his range" one. I usually realize when I'm playing that 'said' bet will most likely only be called by a better hand but don't always consider that in a post. Definitely something i should be much more concious of when I make a post and it'll definitely be something that will hopefully improve my play as well.

[z28dreams]

Excellent, especially on the "play poker" comment. I just had a discussion with Orange about really forming a plan for every single hand - and not just taking it street by street.

There are so many spots here where I see someone call a huge turn bet and then fold a river when an obvious bet is coming.

Either know you're willing to stack off and figure out how to best get it in, or fold immediately.

[shyturtle27]

Furthermore on the "call and play poker" point, this really does revolve around planning your hand and commitment. That's why I liked PNL so much. This is all it dealt with. I've heard people talk about sick good 6-max players knowing how to play in tough spots, but I bet they all had a plan before they got to that spot and they didn't just want to wing it when they got there. If you plan your hands you never really get into a really super tough spot without some kind of idea of what to do.

[billip62]

wow, I just posted and advocated betting for information... but I do stand by it. Betting or raising is a great way to narrow a villian's range and make better decisions with you're stack. Sure, if the opponent has a weaker hand it's value, but that doesn't change the nature of the raise/bet.

In response to the 'give me 20BB to know my cards' agrument I think of it this way, I'm going to spend 20BB to save myself 100BB on a later street.

[derosnec]

good stuff. potsize does matter though.

[ICMoney]

I expected to see Pokey getting slammed in the table chat.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Pokey

The best poster ever