Kinduv awkward stacks for a 3-bet

[hamnegger]

i would go n go 2500 pre rest on flop and of course we are calling a shove.

[RonFezBuddy]

First question is whether his less than 3x bet is a tell?

Assuming no, honestly, I hate putting a lot of chips at risk with AT. I think his opening range contains AJ and AQ a significant amount of the time.

I probably just call. I can also justify a raise to 1800 but I fold if he 4-bets you.

What is his repopping range? JJ+, AK? If so you only have 25% equity. At that point there will be 9373 in the pot and it will cost you 5188 to call a shove. You're not getting enough.

I think I am actually quite awful here and am interested in what everyone else has to say.

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
First question is whether his less than 3x bet is a tell?

Assuming no, honestly, I hate putting a lot of chips at risk with AT. I think his opening range contains AJ and AQ a significant amount of the time.

I probably just call. I can also justify a raise to 1800 but I fold if he 4-bets you.

What is his repopping range? JJ+, AK? If so you only have 25% equity. At that point there will be 9373 in the pot and it will cost you 5188 to call a shove. You're not getting enough.

I think I am actually quite awful here and am interested in what everyone else has to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

He raised to this amount before with those two hands, both of which fold to my RR.

1800 is actually best, I've concluded. You can go-n-go against a call and get away with it against a push. My 3000 raise was retarted, but at least it had a sloppy semblance of the right idea.

Barry

[DontRaiseMeBro]

uh, just fold?

[SengioKang]

i don't mind the just folding option myself...cuz i'm a nit... do the stack math... you are still going to be at a healthy M of 15ish then have 8 hands til blinds hit you.... even when the blinds go up you'll still be at an M of 12ish. both spots you still have a little room to make a move with or pick up a better hand. so fold equity is very ++++

if you were suited i might like a play back at him. but not with offsuit trash which could be dominated. i'd like a backdoor to sneak in myself. i lose to pushes by people with this crap w/ my AKs all the time (which would favor the call of his reshove) cuz your bet is so huge it looks like a steal and you want to end the hand.

anyways, you said he's raised this amount 2 times and folded also to a reraise, so he's clearly capable of folding. it looks like he made the same set up play and sprung the trap with AA, KK or AK, either that or he just got sick of you bullying him and decided to put his foot down.

i really don't see why you make such a "premium hand" huge raise which are generally made OOP w/ a hand that could be a 1/3 fave instead of a cointoss or better (AK) against most hands in his range.

in terms of bet size, like you said, i'm definitely in favor of the 3 bet or even making it just 1500 ... instead of the 5 better which looks like utter brute force (there's a reason you save that for AA, KK and AK)

i think i'd play with a stop and go here.....flat call getting 3/1ish and if you hit a 10 get em in and see how he reacts... or maybe if it comes like a 8 hi raggy thing, then probe bet and see how he reacts. this option gets you out alot cheaper when you miss which you will 2/3

[ChipSpeak]

I see your point Barry, coming over his 2x open feels weird as usually we're setting this up to jam with this stack with 8,9bb's rr or so... I dunno, does that mean we can flat and see a flop, not many make us feel great... with an ugly stack to be oop. Without reads I'd prolly flat, fold anything I don't crush due to lack of originality with that 2x open and stacks.. I almost hate it thinking there's better +EV here somewhere though...
The 1800 rr leaves us with an odd stack to pot ratio.. he calls, checks a rag flop, you? (cbet, he pops you fold...???) I think if we're doing a play based on stacks, we should get the stacks where we want them post flop, as a cbet commits us anyway. The 2.5k gives us a little better chance to take it down right here, and leaves us plenty to make him go away on the flop.

I think I'd either go with the play to 2.5k, calling a shove / jamming most flops or fold/flat. With the read I like the go n go.
one note though, the flat can help keep the 2x raising hounds off us too.

[ChipSpeak]

[ QUOTE ]
uh, just fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
When you grace us with such thought provoking posts, do you edit in word first, or just wing it?

[erc007]

I think i just call here, unless he's raised from LP with junk before. If u 3-bet he's not folding any better hands , maybe AJ if your image is tight. Your stack is ok to make it 2400 and open-shove any flop (if he's the type to flat with middle PP's then u can take the go-and-go aggro line.)

[RonFezBuddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I think i just call here, unless he's raised from LP with junk before. If u 3-bet he's not folding any better hands , maybe AJ if your image is tight. Your stack is ok to make it 2400 and open-shove any flop (if he's the type to flat with middle PP's then u can take the go-and-go aggro line.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone explain to me how making a large raise and then shoving on any flop is +EV? I am not being condescending but I usually have trouble with the concept, and even more so specifically with this example.

If his hand is good enough to call a raise such as 2400 isn't there a chance he's holding something that can call almost any flop? For example, if he calls the raise with something like JJ, and then the flop has no overs, how do we expect him to fold often enough to make this +EV?

Obviously you look super strong pre-flop and your shove indicates more strength and you're gonna fold out a lot of hands that beat you here such as AJ,AQ and midpairs, but is it enough to actually be +EV for all the times you lose? I think the key is in the fact that he's calling a huge raise PF, meaning he is pretty strong too.

Help me understand this play because I see it advocated quite often and I have trouble pulling the trigger on it.

[erc007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think i just call here, unless he's raised from LP with junk before. If u 3-bet he's not folding any better hands , maybe AJ if your image is tight. Your stack is ok to make it 2400 and open-shove any flop (if he's the type to flat with middle PP's then u can take the go-and-go aggro line.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone explain to me how making a large raise and then shoving on any flop is +EV? I am not being condescending but I usually have trouble with the concept, and even more so specifically with this example.

If his hand is good enough to call a raise such as 2400 isn't there a chance he's holding something that can call almost any flop? For example, if he calls the raise with something like JJ, and then the flop has no overs, how do we expect him to fold often enough to make this +EV?

Obviously you look super strong pre-flop and your shove indicates more strength and you're gonna fold out a lot of hands that beat you here such as AJ,AQ and midpairs, but is it enough to actually be +EV for all the times you lose? I think the key is in the fact that he's calling a huge raise PF, meaning he is pretty strong too.

Help me understand this play because I see it advocated quite often and I have trouble pulling the trigger on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

1st of all, I wasn't "advocating" the move in question. If u read the last line of the post that you quoted, then u have an example of a player specific/read specific situation where raising to 2400 then shoving any flop is EV+.