Playing HU at SNG 6-max: theory discussion

[BarryLyndon]

I have been having a real difficult time winning HU sit n go 6 max over the past 20 or 30 games. I am a regular winner at $20 and $30 SNGs and I for a while I was pwning when we got HU as well. However, recently, as I have been more card dead HU, I have struggled to win. I think I've lost like the last 12 out of 15 HUs.

I know that some of this is because of such a small sample size, but I feel totally uncomfortable. The blind sizes feel awkard and I'm wondering if I am not pushbotting soon enough.

How to you optimize your HUSNG performance in these situations:

1. Blinds 100/200, Hero: 5500; Villain: 3500

2. Blinds 100/200, Hero: 3000; Villain: 6000

3. Blinds 120/240, Hero: 6500; Villain: 2500

4. Blinds 40/80, Hero: 2500; Villain: 6500

5. Blinds 100/200, Hero: 4500; Villain: 4500

[DannyOcean_]

I'd love to help but i'm clueless as well. it feels so damn awkward to do anything when you are HU with like 15-20 BB's, but what else are you supposed to do? Push/fold when 17BB's deep? Minraise? Raise and cbet and pray you didn't just give away half your stack? I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this as well.

[drzen]

I'd be interested to know because I just play poker. Pushbotting seems to give weaker players (and a few do exist, luckily) a better shot to get lucky against me.

[BarryLyndon]

Right, but playing "poker" at these stacks just [censored] sucks. Your opponent gets so loose heads up it's not even funny. Cont. bets are almost worthless. C/Ring (see below) is getting called down light.

Donk tendencies change so fast. First, you think he's loose preflop, but he has been really weak on flops. So you try to get him to play flops and destroy him down to 2000 or something and then pushbot. But he's playing EVERYTHING on flops, especially OOP. So loose passive - mid pairs for opponent = TP. If you hit, great, if you miss, you're screwed.

Well, obv., if you were deeper, this is fine. But, blinds go up every 6 minutes, so if you don't hit in like the next 15 hands, what are you gonna do??


Even on the most innocent of boards, [censored] goes bad. Like last night:

Hero (5000), SB
Villain (4000), BB

Blinds 100/200

Hero raises with A8o to 600, Villain calls.

Flop: Jc 7d 5h

Villain checks, Hero bets 700 and is like "easy fold on this board." Villain times and calls.

Turn: 2d

Villain times and checks, Hero ?

River: Qs

Villain leads for 1500.

So, basically, I'm stuck with either pumping out a pure bluff and hoping he doesn't call. I could check here, but on the turn if he leads (which is happening more and more), then what? Or should I call down with A8o?

This one is slightly less baffling, I guess the proposition of me having a 9, K, set, two pair, or basically any hand where I'm ahead 55/45 didn't phase him:

Hero (3600), BB
Villain (5400), SB

Villain was playing really tight, but is starting to open up his raising range a bit now. Not too much though. He's cont. betting almost all hands I check to him.

150/300

Villain raises to 600, Hero calls with J10o. Villain's small raise indicates to me that he's not folding to a three bet. Also, I three bet with J9o and got called down with A8o by another aggro villain. This raise is a little smaller than rest, but I know he'll cont. bet if he misses and if I hit or get a good draw, I can CR him off his better hand or CR him to call with a mid pair if J or 10 hits. Or let it go and push bot from hereonin.

Flop: Kd 9h 7h

Hero checks, villain bets 700, Hero pushes for 2300 more, Villain INSTA SNAP CALLS with AQo.

I'm totally lost heads up.

[DevinLake]

If they don't fold, don't bluff. Value bet.
If they fold a lot, bet a lot.

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
If they don't fold, don't bluff. Value bet.
If they fold a lot, bet a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I think that's like in the vaccuum textbook advice that doesn't acknowledge the 5 examples where we are ~20BB deep and blinds move up every 6 minutes. I'm well aware that you are not supposed to bluff "loose players" and you are supposed to value bet harder against them. Not the point. 20-25BB structures where if you fold SB, you are essentially giving your opponent a pot either 10% of your stack or 10% of his stack sucks.

What am I going to do - raise to 600 at 100/200 3 times, miss all flops, fold all flops, and then start to push bot? Is this correct? Or, do I try to cont. bet one "good flop"? or just avoid tough situations and wait to push bot if I don't hit a premium hand at this level? Or do I incorporate c/r bluffing more in SNG HU. Or should I pushbot earlier?

Sometimes, you get lucky and your opponent is TAG and you can 3-bet him and play some poker. Or he's weak tight and you can rape him with a couple of cont. bets. Most are LOOSE PASSIVE and it is just becoming too much of a gamble. Whether I am going to get called down with A high, midpair, TP, or whatever, is driving me bat [censored] at 100/200. I feel like I am resorting more to push botting than I am anything else, when at 20 - 25BB, I'd really like to whittle opponents down a little and have a 2:1 or greater than pushbotting begins.

Barry

[DevinLake]

No, that's the advice that came to my mind when you posted your whine about 'but they never fold and it's not fair'.

If they never fold, throw away the trash. Raise your strong hands. They call with worse, you profit long term. Don't be afraid to value bet thin.

If you raise a few times, meet resistance and your stack widdles down to 10bbs. So be it, pushbot. You should feel comfortable getting short.

What else are you going to do against people that never fold? You want to start randomly c/r flops that you deem good, despite the fact they your opponents seem to be playing a very wide range preflop? How are you going to determine these good flops when you can't narrow your opponents range?

This strategy will just help make your opponents no foldem style less bad. If you are going to check shove into them, you are going to be winning the small pots and losing the big ones.

Just play tight solid poker. Bet your good hands. Play the big pots when you have a hand.

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
No, that's the advice that came to my mind when you posted your whine about 'but they never fold and it's not fair'.

If they never fold, throw away the trash. Raise your strong hands. They call with worse, you profit long term. Don't be afraid to value bet thin.

If you raise a few times, meet resistance and your stack widdles down to 10bbs. So be it, pushbot. You should feel comfortable getting short.

What else are you going to do against people that never fold? You want to start randomly c/r flops that you deem good, despite the fact they your opponents seem to be playing a very wide range preflop? How are you going to determine these good flops when you can't narrow your opponents range?

This strategy will just help make your opponents no foldem style less bad. If you are going to check shove into them, you are going to be winning the small pots and losing the big ones.

Just play tight solid poker. Bet your good hands. Play the big pots when you have a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't a whine post. It was a question as to how tight I should be playing against loose passives at 15-20BB. Thanks for explaining to me more in full.

Barry

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, but playing "poker" at these stacks just [censored] sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you're no good at playing poker.

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent gets so loose heads up it's not even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's bad?

[ QUOTE ]
Cont. bets are almost worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is Poker 101. If you cannot bluff, you can value bet.

[ QUOTE ]
C/Ring (see below) is getting called down light.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that a bad thing?

[ QUOTE ]
Donk tendencies change so fast. First, you think he's loose preflop, but he has been really weak on flops. So you try to get him to play flops and destroy him down to 2000 or something and then pushbot. But he's playing EVERYTHING on flops, especially OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fantastic!

[ QUOTE ]
So loose passive - mid pairs for opponent = TP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Opponent is playing correctly then. I just don't understand why you think otherwise.

I will call you down with middle pair too. HU poker is not about making top pair.

[ QUOTE ]
If you hit, great, if you miss, you're screwed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have to bet if I miss. If he's calling me down with any piece, I don't have to keep betting at him.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, obv., if you were deeper, this is fine. But, blinds go up every 6 minutes, so if you don't hit in like the next 15 hands, what are you gonna do??

[/ QUOTE ]

Hit on the 16th? I don't know. But it sounds to me like you're thinking that you've missed if you don't hit top pair. A player like you're describing, you can mostly beat them with (a lot) less than that.


[ QUOTE ]
Even on the most innocent of boards, [censored] goes bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's poker. You can't always win.

[ QUOTE ]
Like last night:

Hero (5000), SB
Villain (4000), BB

Blinds 100/200

Hero raises with A8o to 600, Villain calls.

Flop: Jc 7d 5h

Villain checks, Hero bets 700 and is like "easy fold on this board." Villain times and calls.

Turn: 2d

Villain times and checks, Hero ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Checks behind with your read.


[ QUOTE ]
River: Qs

Villain leads for 1500.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy fold.

[ QUOTE ]
So, basically, I'm stuck with either pumping out a pure bluff and hoping he doesn't call. I could check here, but on the turn if he leads (which is happening more and more), then what? Or should I call down with A8o?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold turn if he leads. You could have checked behind on the flop, then called down. You just don't want to play a big pot with nothing.


[ QUOTE ]
This one is slightly less baffling, I guess the proposition of me having a 9, K, set, two pair, or basically any hand where I'm ahead 55/45 didn't phase him:

Hero (3600), BB
Villain (5400), SB

Villain was playing really tight, but is starting to open up his raising range a bit now. Not too much though. He's cont. betting almost all hands I check to him.

150/300

Villain raises to 600, Hero calls with J10o. Villain's small raise indicates to me that he's not folding to a three bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't threebet here.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I three bet with J9o and got called down with A8o by another aggro villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against loose players, you're burning money threebetting with jack high. Tight ones, maybe you can induce a fold, but if you don't, you're going to struggle to win the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
This raise is a little smaller than rest, but I know he'll cont. bet if he misses and if I hit or get a good draw, I can CR him off his better hand or CR him to call with a mid pair if J or 10 hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that assuming you can C/R him off a better hand if you hit is an assumption too far. What board do you hit a pair or draw and he folds a better hand?

[ QUOTE ]
Or let it go and push bot from hereonin.

Flop: Kd 9h 7h

Hero checks, villain bets 700, Hero pushes for 2300 more, Villain INSTA SNAP CALLS with AQo.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are doing this with a draw so often on this board though.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm totally lost heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first hand, with your read, you played correctly. If he called with QT on the flop, well, he sucks and got lucky. The second hand, I prefer to lead if I'm repping a pair on that board. I'm not a particularly good poker player though! So take with a pinch of salt.

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be afraid to value bet thin.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best advice I think you're going to get against these players.