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#1
09-10-2007, 03:27 PM
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How often should you raise PF in a FR game?
I feel comfortable playing pretty aggressively in 6-max and raising a lot of hands, but it seems like about half the time I raise PF playing FR, some short stack ends up limp-raising me and getting 70% of his stack in. How do you combat this?
Do you tend to only raise hands without aces or pairs? Only raise to 3xbb when you do raise? Only raise when there's 1 shortstack limper or less? Some combination? I'm already only raising in the last 3 positions, and my VPIP/PFR for 7 or more players is 27/10, but it seems like I'm not adjusting enough. The FR games tend to play pretty soft overall so I'd like to play them a little more, but the big pots preflop are killing me. 
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#2
09-10-2007, 05:26 PM
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Re: How often should you raise PF in a FR game?
If there are a lot of shortstacks at the table (say, 4 or more) then I do modify my game by limping hands that I ordinarily would raise in a full ring / everyone with close to a buyin situation, but still raise the strongest subset of that range. KK9T double suited is still a raise but KKQ9 1 suit is a limp. Some shortstacks will only limp-RR with AAxx but others will do it with some hands that simply "look good enough" to put their 20 bb in (KQJ9 suited, 5678, etc). Against these guys, I won't be shy about playing a more liberal range of paired hands since they don't always show up with aces like the others.
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#4
09-10-2007, 07:49 PM
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Re: How often should you raise PF in a FR game?
Raise a little less with hands that do not contain an ace(and you would hate a reraise) when someone limps early. You will also sometimes just have to raise fold. Also adopt a 3-4bb standard raise which will allow you to still build pots in position while not allowing your opponents to get as much in, or win as much when you raise fold. The expectational difference for you is small.
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#5
09-10-2007, 08:01 PM
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Re: How often should you raise PF in a FR game?
[ QUOTE ]
I feel comfortable playing pretty aggressively in 6-max and raising a lot of hands, but it seems like about half the time I raise PF playing FR, some short stack ends up limp-raising me and getting 70% of his stack in. How do you combat this? Do you tend to only raise hands without aces or pairs? Only raise to 3xbb when you do raise? Only raise when there's 1 shortstack limper or less? Some combination? I'm already only raising in the last 3 positions, and my VPIP/PFR for 7 or more players is 27/10, but it seems like I'm not adjusting enough. The FR games tend to play pretty soft overall so I'd like to play them a little more, but the big pots preflop are killing me. [/ QUOTE ] i have like 150k hands of FR (that's all I played until recently), and my PFR over that sample is ~18. Not sure if that's optimal, but it worked for me. as for the short-stackers, i just don't worry about them that much. i do limp behind a tiny bit more, but if i'm raising with a good hand and position and it ends up being a really big multi-way pot preflop, so be it.
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#6
09-10-2007, 08:06 PM
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Re: How often should you raise PF in a FR game?
Pete,
You complain about short stacker's a lot, which makes me think that they beat you, but you win because you win enough off everyone else. You perhaps could have won more by losing less to them. I'll be happy to be shown wrong when you show some stats about how you did against the short stacker's specifically. There could be cases where you would just ignore them but I find your argument of "I won therefore this was the best strategy" unconvincing.
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#7
09-10-2007, 08:32 PM
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Re: How often should you raise PF in a FR game?
[ QUOTE ]
Pete, You complain about short stacker's a lot, which makes me think that they beat you, but you win because you win enough off everyone else. You perhaps could have won more by losing less to them. I'll be happy to be shown wrong when you show some stats about how you did against the short stacker's specifically. There could be cases where you would just ignore them but I find your argument of "I won therefore this was the best strategy" unconvincing. [/ QUOTE ] i haven't looked at the #'s, but i would guess the (old/good) short stackers won a small amount off of me, since i always played a big stack and went after other big stacks, and paying off the short stacks to some extent is just the cost of doing business. but the goal is to win as much as you can, not to win against every player. and i don't believe i ever used the argument you quote.
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#8
09-10-2007, 09:03 PM
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Re: How often should you raise PF in a FR game?
You said [ QUOTE ]
I have like 150k hands of FR (that's all I played until recently), and my PFR over that sample is ~18. Not sure if that's optimal, but it worked for me. [/ QUOTE ] This is the argument of which I was speaking. What I am saying is I do not think that is optimal. Short-stacking works especially against those who do not think about it. I agree with you that in many situations you can win the most by playing a big stacking strategy going after other big other stacks, but there would be times when adopting 3-4bb standard raise as well as raising slightly less when against early short stacked limper's would be better. This would still allow you to build pots in position against the deep stacks, while losing less in the event a short stacked limper re-raises. It's a balancing act, of course, but there are many times when you should tip the scale in that direction for a more profitable strategy.
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