Are you ever stupified by the thought processes of some players?

[RandomUser]

7 Card Stud High ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 7: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (9.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Seat 7: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (8.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (11.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

River - (14.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 7: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___raises

Total pot: (18.50 BB - $111)


Yes, this is a thinly disguised whine, I just can't comprehend villain's play on 3rd 4th or 5th.

6th is probably not that horrible even with dead 9s and dead diamonds due to the sheer size of the pot.

I guess I shouldn't complain with this happens since in the long term it means I win tons of money, but it always leaves me going WTF?!?! when they turn their hand over and makes it absolutely impossible to ever put them on a hand again.

It doesn't put me on tilt, but it does leaves me confused.

On a more analytic note, does anyone like merely calling on 3rd or would you just go ahead and 3-bet and give away your hand?

I am probably 50/50 on it as a 3-bet pretty much means my hand is face up and they can adjust their play accordingly.

Since I am mostly likely not rolled up, they know I have a big pocket pair and they will know when I make 2 pair.

[RolledAces]

Yeah Randomuser, sometimes i feel as if i'm in the same boat also. Stumpified by the though processes of others and their play. Well a couple of my personal opinions might come into play here.
I feel as if this player probably put you on split 3's and when the ace hit, you were "making" a play as to trying to represent aces up. A lot of players do this online and at the casino and like to take control of the betting/hand whereas seat 7 probably figured that if he hit a queen or jack, he'd be in a good spot to re-raise you b/c he felt that he was "ahead." Also with seat 7 chasing to hit that queen or jack, when 5th street came with the 8, his logical approach might of been "oh, i have more outs now..." for him to hit that gut shot draw, inducing a call from your bet. And as for 6th street, that's pretty explanitory as to where he has a gut shot and flush draw to draw against you. Yes it's that sad that some players will chase that far on a nearly dead gut shot draw or FINALLY pick up their flush draw on 6th street (4 to their suit) or chasing with that pocket pair for a 2 outter on the river but it's just that kind of crap that us better players have to deal with and say "next hand" b/c the next time he chases, us better players will REALLY beat the money outta these players...
One, more tip, if this hand was online and the villian was multitabling, that just makes it worse/better b/c all they see is "I have a pair / draw, i'm going the whole way.." negating the dead cards for their pair and draws...
I hope my though process helped you out a little b/c sometimes to become a better player, you have to look at the hand history and reason as to why the "clown" did this and that.... GL

[Wahoo73]

Interestingly enough, a very good poker pal of mine and I were discussing this very subject last night, inasmuch as we both play a lot of stud at levels from 1/2 to 5/10.

Here is what I have concluded about these (insert your favorite poker player derogative here):

Their MINIMUM starting hand requirement is any pair (regardless of kicker and regardless of what other cards are on the board), or any two suited cards (regardless of what other cards are on the board), or any three cards that are connectable (regardless of whether they are one-gapped or two-gapped and regardless of what other cards are on the board). I estimate that at least 1/2 - 2/3 of all the possible starting hands in stud fit these MINIMUM requirements.

Once they have decided to play a hand, they then will play almost every hand to 5th street. If they pay any attention to what appears in other players' hands it's only to see if they show open pairs. Then, and only then, will they possibly fold on 4th street. Otherwise they play till 5th street and then reevaluate their own hand (and only their own hand) to see if they have any pairs or any draws. If they do, they continue, inevitably to the river.

Your posted hand is a prime example of this. Villain has two diamonds in the hole to start so he plays it, regardless of the action. He then catches another diamond on 4th that also gives him a 3-straight, so he continues, regardless of the action (and after all, there are no pairs showing). On 5th street, he picks up a gutshot straight draw (the favorite hand of these types of players and there are still no pairs visible), plus he still has his 3-flush, so he plays on. 6th street is nirvana for him, as he picks up that 4th diamond and calling is a no-brainer at this point. The river answers his prayers. And so it goes, thus validating his inferior starting hand requirements and his strategy to play any pot he enters to at least 5th street.

[jbrennen]

Reasons somebody might play poker:

1. Maximize long term profit.

For a lot of "serious" poker players, ranging from amateur to world-class, the list stops there.

Thinking that the list stops there for everybody, all the time, can cause you a lot of trouble.

[2461Badugi]

[ QUOTE ]

Here is what I have concluded about these (insert your favorite poker player derogative here):

Their MINIMUM starting hand requirement is any pair (regardless of kicker and regardless of what other cards are on the board), or any two suited cards (regardless of what other cards are on the board), or any three cards that are connectable (regardless of whether they are one-gapped or two-gapped and regardless of what other cards are on the board). I estimate that at least 1/2 - 2/3 of all the possible starting hands in stud fit these MINIMUM requirements.

Once they have decided to play a hand, they then will play almost every hand to 5th street. If they pay any attention to what appears in other players' hands it's only to see if they show open pairs. Then, and only then, will they possibly fold on 4th street. Otherwise they play till 5th street and then reevaluate their own hand (and only their own hand) to see if they have any pairs or any draws. If they do, they continue, inevitably to the river.

Your posted hand is a prime example of this. Villain has two diamonds in the hole to start so he plays it, regardless of the action. He then catches another diamond on 4th that also gives him a 3-straight, so he continues, regardless of the action (and after all, there are no pairs showing). On 5th street, he picks up a gutshot straight draw (the favorite hand of these types of players and there are still no pairs visible), plus he still has his 3-flush, so he plays on. 6th street is nirvana for him, as he picks up that 4th diamond and calling is a no-brainer at this point. The river answers his prayers. And so it goes, thus validating his inferior starting hand requirements and his strategy to play any pot he enters to at least 5th street.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good characterization. I'd add that a lot of these people play any two broadways as well.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]

This is a very good characterization. I'd add that a lot of these people play any two broadways as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

and the two broadways were sooooted here, a monster obv!

While even a razz player such as myself can see that the 3rd and 5th st plays were spewtastic, does the [villain] deserve any credit for the bold cold call on 4th in the face of a c/r? I think he does in a 4-way pot given the hero's trappy play on 3rd.

[2461Badugi]

[ QUOTE ]
does the [villain] deserve any credit for the bold cold call on 4th in the face of a c/r? I think he does in a 4-way pot given the hero's trappy play on 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's certainly a bold call. Oddly enough, he's getting 6:1 on 16% equity even against hero's actual hand, so it's a marginal call even faceup.

This is a wonderful illustration of how pot equity is split between the best hand and the best draw, even when the best draw isn't all that good. Seats 1 and 2 are essentially dead money in either situation, and give villain just enough overlay to chase. Fifth is also fine, even with the dead nines. He's getting 9.5:1 on about a 7:1 shot, more if he gets an overcall.

I may have to start peeling with 3-straight-flushes more often when I'm the only draw in the pot.

[RandomUser]

[ QUOTE ]
Reasons somebody might play poker:

1. Maximize long term profit.

For a lot of "serious" poker players, ranging from amateur to world-class, the list stops there.

Thinking that the list stops there for everybody, all the time, can cause you a lot of trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's something that I know, but often forget.

When I put myself in the other player's shoes to try and see what my own hand looks like, I look at the boards the way *I* would look at them rather than how someone else might look at them.

[Tha Stunna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
does the [villain] deserve any credit for the bold cold call on 4th in the face of a c/r? I think he does in a 4-way pot given the hero's trappy play on 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's certainly a bold call. Oddly enough, he's getting 6:1 on 16% equity even against hero's actual hand, so it's a marginal call even faceup.

This is a wonderful illustration of how pot equity is split between the best hand and the best draw, even when the best draw isn't all that good. Seats 1 and 2 are essentially dead money in either situation, and give villain just enough overlay to chase. Fifth is also fine, even with the dead nines. He's getting 9.5:1 on about a 7:1 shot, more if he gets an overcall.

I may have to start peeling with 3-straight-flushes more often when I'm the only draw in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with your conclusion, the immediate odds are misleading. By calling here you also set yourself up to lose more money on 5th and 6th to make your draw; river and 1:6 price on a 5:1 shot don't make up for it, especially against trips. Similar logic for 5th, although that may actually be ok; I'm not sure.

Not the worst play this guy made though. 3rd is terrible, but with all that raising his play becomes much closer to correct than people would think on later streets.

[RandomUser]

This hand is actually an example of just how twisted stud hands are with huge pots. If you ignore the 3rd hand and look at 5th street, you get:

pokenum -mc 500000 -7s ah as ac 2c 9s - qd jd td 8h 3s / 6s 7s th 4c jh 3c 9h jc
7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 9s Ac 2c Ah 439393 87.88 60607 12.12 0 0.00 0.879
3s Qd Jd Td 8h 60607 12.12 439393 87.88 0 0.00 0.121

So he is getting 9.5:1 odds on a 7.5:1 underdog and the call on 5th is technically correct.